Thoughts on... The Inventors Guild

[Melchior]

Often discussed...never seen. The 'elusive' INVENTORS GUILD. Is it really a Guild? Or a Federation? Some Corporation or Conglomerate just named 'The Guild'? Or there Guild chapters everywhere? Is it like a Franchise? or there competing Not-Inventors "Guilds"? Surely they have competitors...

What are their members like; what kinds of uniforms do they wear - are their guards specially trained? Things any taffer should know before, any plans are made.

My ideas; The Guild 'members' comprise 3 tiers (non-guards):

• Factory Workers, Clerks, Managers / Administrators, Labourers
  • [Just like regular people, mabey a specific uniform/coverall with guild logo & colors]
• Journeymen (Apprentice Engineers, Intermediate Crafters, Jr. Draftsmen) & Technicians
  • [Always in Guild issued uniforms/coveralls; they often carry the tools of their trade on heavy belts...never a good idea to bother them while working unless you want a face-to-wrench meeting]
• Craftmasters, Engineers (not the steam train kind!), Guild Elite (Executive level Admins)
  • [The people who keep the guild on top...by any means available. You'll know when you seem them - special badges & ranking-member rings ~ of gold(!)]

The Guild, (mabey) holding a virtual-monopoly on "high"-technology needs to keep out nosy visitors & industrial spies; So it has its OWN Internal Security force, perhaps named; 

• Guild Sentries
  • [Call 'em a bobby, ex-copper, flatfoot, or hired-muscle; these are often former-city watchmen in Guild uniform with GUILD ARMs like the WHISTLE! and clubs!!]
    • The Whistle: One of the most commonly feared of Guild devices; its simplicity and effectiveness are unmatched - when a guard has been alerted they blow on the Whistle device: it emits an EAR-PEAIRCING squeal, heard for many blocks...sending their allies and everyone running, ruining many a taffers day/night/life...
• Guild Sentinels
  • [ The better ranks of Guild Enforcement; their spiffy uniforms arn't just for show... they have special tools as well]
    • Shock-Rod: Described as a Iron-Rod a arms length with bronze pins sticking out the ends and a thick wooden handle with rubber pomel & hand-guard, when jabbed into a hard-surface; the metal pins at the end deliver a high-voltage shock...with stunning results that have shocked and enlighten-ing'd many a grounded-man...
• Guild Guardians
  • [ The Elitest of Guild forces; some say they have augmented hearing helms & special eye-wear gadgets; a steam-punk James Bond]
    • Repeating Crossbows: The rapidity of fire from the fastest bowman, combined with the armour penetration of heavy steel bolts...not a good look for a taffer to end up skewered like roast swine
• Exterminators
  • ['guards' Kinda; especially equipped with rubber gas-masks, suits & fumigator devices and arn't afraid of stinkin' up the joint with noxious gasses meant to eradicate spiders, rats, burricks, taffers, and adventuresome burglars...naturally they are immune to GAS arrows with that gear]
    • Fumigator & Gas-Mask: Think Gas Arrow but at point blank range but delivered with a pump-sprayer, comes with complimentary Gas-Mask (so the user isn't affected by their own fumes...)

 

But that is just the Human inhabitants of the Guild; Their Machines - play a major role too...

 

• Electrified Locks:  In a word: EVIL. The worst a normal taffer ever expects from a lock is for it to jam or break the pick itself. Not with these diabolical mechanisms - no the average burglar gets a NASTY mabey even _fatal_ electric shock when using standard metal lockpicks on this guild-speciality... mabey Insulated Picks exist?
• Beam Sensors: Often missed - by unwary everyday thieves; A almost invisible beam of light emits from a projector into a sensor module mounted a few paces away (on walls) - ANY solid object breaking the 'beam' activates this triggered alarm/trap/re-locker/gate, or siren...mabey a carefully positioned mirror could help?
• Intercom: Yet another special Guild Invention - it seems so innocuous - until your blackjacking campaign has been noticed by the complete lack of guards 'checking-in' a floor, which causes more patrols to be sent by central... Also; an alerted guard can scream into the voice pickup for help - unhelpful!
• Alarm Stations: sure you think you've seen these before in Upscale Mansions...not like this one! It has an integrated Alarm Klaxon, Alert Zone indicator & BIG RED BUTTON™ now the guards know where you were last seen!
• Metal Detectors: the Coup-de-grace for an armed thief; any metal swords, broadhead arrows, or lock-picks even could trip this infernal machines sensors - usually connected to something loud and obnoxious! What am I supposed to use Harsh Language?!?

 

Last but not least...the Guild has working Automatons - but not much is known outside their halls; perhaps with good reason, mabey their contraptions have some high maintenance costs or serious flaws, one can hope?

 

A Taffers Tool'd up, toolkit:

• Soot (Smoke) bomb: just like cleaning out 200 chimmneys at once - not only is everyone with eyes blinded by the soot & a lungfull of instant smog- it even affects some sensitive equipment as well, or how well do camera lenses work after being coated in black crud? A: They don't.
• Periscope: you'd like to see the Future coming, or mabey just around corners... or over knee high obstacles without giving away your hiding spot.
• Rubber Boots: Ugly footwear - that both softens steps & offers "Electrical Insulation up to 3KV!" - says a guild label
• Grappling Hook: Where the rope arrow can't work: over Stone & hard ledges, Pipes, tops of Brick walls - too bad its SOOO noisy when used.

 

[thebigh]

Interesting you should mention the Inventors' Guild. I recently started work on a new map that will feature them heavily. I envision their facility to be sort of a cross between a university campus, a tinkerer's workshop, and the HQ of an 18th century Learned Society. I'm thinking there will be a moderately sized lecture theater, more than a few laboritories, and a really nice library.

[Xolvix]

Read this:

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Inventor's_Guild

[Kurshok]

I could imagine if they're combined steampunk technology and necromancy together, their leader probably resembles a more copper steampunk looking version of Belisarius Cawl from Warhammer 40K.

[Melchior]

Here's the latest Informant report; Unbelievable...! Have I been taken for a fool?! These crude drawings - HOW can the guild have FAR more gadgetry than even a most imaginative school-child dreams of! I think my payments been swindled with a deception - clearly no Guild Engineer could build such things; this is the work of a crooked artist, clearly! Pfoof!

[tib]

well, i really do not understand, why the inventor's guild did not invent a basic b.p. firearms in the 17' century when the most of tdm missions realized but did a fancy lasers, cameras, detectors etc.

[Melchior]

2 hours ago, tib said:

well, i really do not understand, why the inventor's guild did not invent a basic b.p. firearms in the 17' century when the most of tdm missions realized but did a fancy lasers, cameras, detectors etc.

Cannons actually EXIST in TDM; they show up in about 3 missions. One I recall actually gets FIRED - as part of the objectives. (nothing animated,  blast-a-hole-in-a-wall gimmick) More obviously MINES too... so B.P. (or something LIKE it ) exists in-world.

So either the Empire has banned all civilian firearms, or more likely: Nobody cared to create one as its not part of classic Thief/1,2,3... series game-play or Worse; I don't think any modders here even possess the knowledge to model, animate, script, code, texture, sound-engineer, script-more and create all the associated  kinematic animations as well...need a real Doom3 expert for that.

Also; Everyone forgets old Air Guns exist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girardoni_air_rifle

The early ones even LOOK 100% steam-punk, with weird iron & brass spheres for pressure - fancy nickle-iron skeletal frames galore.

[Melchior]

Words fail me, this the 2nd (and last?) page of exfiltrated Guild material - came at great personal risk to my Informant, he regrets only being able to lift a single page of a larger catalogue - of Inventions.

What does the word "Windebusch" Mean?

[tib]

Oh, dear. At what mission did I saw melchior the pawnbroker?

[Kurshok]

Has the Inventors Guild invented toilets yet, or are they still shitting in buckets?

[Melchior]

On 6/26/2023 at 1:41 AM, Kurshok said:

Has the Inventors Guild invented toilets yet, or are they still shitting in buckets?

Mabey they have. I've yet to see ANY Guild themed facilities - at all, in any mission for TDM.

Case on point, Many-a-map is themed around;

1. Ancient Multi-Hundred year old Castles - (no plumbing evident of ANY kind).
2. brick Industrial Warehouses, City back-alleyways...
3. rediscovered Ruins, often below a Church/Temple/Mausoleum/Graveyard...
4. huge old Mansions - rarely even updated to TOWN-GAS Lamp lighting, let alone 'modern' plumbing...

This does leave out;

1. Civil Service offices
2. Watch Stations / Prisons
3. High-class Merchant shops & stores
4. Multi-Tenant Apartment / Hospital / Hotel (ect...)
5. Factory / Office buildings

The 'modern' design we are all familiar with was only perfected by 1877. Yet the 1st version was patented in 1778~ (ish). So here's a old plumbing catalogue page from 1884.

 

Will anyone model & skin a Water-closet I wonder?

[Kurshok]

It is odd, they haven't created a mission where the only way into a Fort Knox style Gold Bar Repository is to swim through the sewers up the pipe and crawl out of the toilet. Wasn't there a sewer in the very first level of Thief The Dark Project?

[tib]

Hey, wtf why tdm inventors not invent a classic firearms at most 17'century missions? Can someone explain that to me?

Edited June 11, 2024 by tib
spelling

[wesp5]

I don't know about the TDM setting, but I think in the German role playing game "Das Schwarze Auge" black powder and other explosive chemistry just doesn't work, it's a different world in which magic works instead after all.

Edited June 12, 2024 by wesp5

[chakkman]

14 hours ago, tib said:

Hey, wtf why tdm inventors not invent a classic firearms at most 17'century missions? Can someone explain that to me?

Why didn't they invent combustion engines, or cars? Why didn't they invent planes or spaceships?

The answer is simply: Because the inventors of the lore and setting of these games didn't think that those are good ideas. And, I totally agree with that.

[HMart]

14 hours ago, tib said:

Hey, wtf why tdm inventors not invent a classic firearms at most 17'century missions? Can someone explain that to me?

Perhaps you want some in lore special reason why there's no guns but the truth is more simple, is because the developers of this game, didn't wanted guns as a gameplay tool.

This game is a homage to the game Thief (mostly Thief 1, 2 and 3) and in those games there's no guns.

But anyone is free to come up with a in lore excuse why there's no guns, perhaps in this world shooting a iron pellet through a tube is impossible, because of some obscure magical reason.  

Edited June 12, 2024 by HMart

[OrbWeaver]

In general, medieval fantasy-style worlds don't incorporate much real-world technology, while hi-tech worlds tend not to use magic. I suspect the main reason for this is that magic and technology have a lot of overlap in what they can achieve, and it wouldn't be obvious why you would need both. If you have artillery you don't need a fireball spell, whereas if you can read people's minds with magic you don't need advanced brain scanners.

Some works do have both, but they have to consider carefully how to combine them. Harry Potter largely keeps the magic and muggle worlds separate, whereas the Rivers of London series makes magic users extremely rare while also making magic itself extremely damaging to technology (your iPhone will catch fire if you cast too many spells near it).

There's no reason why a mapper cannot introduce some explosives or firearms into a mission if it makes narrative sense. I believe one of the T2X missions did this.

[ChronA]

35 minutes ago, HMart said:

Perhaps you want some in lore special reason why there's no guns but the truth is more simple, is because the developers of this game, didn't wanted guns as a gameplay tool.

Lore's job is to contextualize developers' non-diegetic design decisions in a complete and consistent diegetic rationale. Thus I think tib has asked a good question.

It's also not valid to point at Thief and say "we are just copying them" (even though that is the truth for the non-diegetic explanation). There are some big differences between the Thief setting and TDM. Namely, while TDM (understandably) lifts many of the late Georgian/early Victorian style elements from Thief 2, it lacks the context provided by Thief TDP's story. Remember that all the steampunk technology in the Thief series is not an organic part of the culture, but rather a magical expression of the Builder's influence in an otherwise largely medieval society, which then got unleashed in Thief 2 because of the Trickster's death.

The setting in Thief 2 and 3 is basically a medieval one that got uplifted into a Victorian one in the space of 2-3 years using world-bending magic. Therefore it is understandable that no one, outside of the Mechanists, has figured out technologies like cannons, even though they are technically possible.

 

The setting in TDM lacks this excuse. On the contrary its own lore is quite clear that that it is meant to be an alternate history real-world analog. Clearly explosives do exist in this setting, so it is fair to ask why no one has ever thought of using them to propel an arrow or rock out of a tube to hurt someone, and that this might be an easier way to equip a fighting force that training all the men in archery... This is especially perplexing, since the sort of society TDM seems to model is one that is strongly influenced, if not enabled, by the existence of firearms tech. I wouldn't say the lack of a definite explanation is a fatal flaw, but it's something that should have a rationale.

[chakkman]

If you incorporate firearms, then the arrows in the game are practically useless and pointless.

Apart from that, I think nothing would be less fitting than firearms for this kind of setting. Not to mention the fact that firearms are a tiny bit loud in a stealth scenario. "Oh, but the inventors could invent silencers!" Yes, that and so much more.  It's just that it won't exactly fit the scenario.

Edited June 12, 2024 by chakkman

[wesp5]

3 hours ago, ChronA said:

Clearly explosives do exist in this setting, so it is fair to ask why no one has ever thought of using them to propel an arrow or rock out of a tube to hurt someone, and that this might be an easier way to equip a fighting force that training all the men in archery...

Explosives exist in TDM? In what missions? Also the "Dresden Files" book series has a nice explanation why magic and technology don't work together: using magic near advanced technology breaks it!

[ChronA]

4 hours ago, chakkman said:

firearms are a tiny bit loud in a stealth scenario

Which is a fine rationale for the player character, but what's the excuse for the guards?

2 hours ago, wesp5 said:

Explosives exist in TDM? In what missions?

"Explosive mine (Mine) - This is the standard, more common variant of the mine, seen in most mission where mines appear. Once an armed mine is triggered by a non-player character or creature, it will create a small detonation, the explosive force being deadly to anyone standing in its vicinity...."

[HMart]

There's also the fire arrow that is technically a explosive. 

But at the end of the day, this is a game and if anyone want guns in it, someone will have to implement them. 

Someone will have to model, texture, rig, animate, code and play test a gun into the game that feats and like chakkman said, there's always the danger that the existence of guns, will just kill the usefulness of arrows and the Thief like identity of this game.

But if someone wants to do a special separate non canon TDM mission, where guns exist or aliens or whatever then by all means go for it, personally I will certainly applaud it and play it.

[wesp5]

The fire arrow is clearly magical and I always assumed the explosive mine is similar. Granted, the name might be changed.

Edited June 12, 2024 by wesp5

[ChronA]

I don't think anyone is actually suggesting that guns should be in the game. (Certainly that's not what I'm asking for.) Rather I see this as an opportunity for this very creative community to brainstorm some fun and clever explanations for why guns don't exist in this setting when clearly explosives of some sort do.

Example:
Suppose wesp5 is right: fire arrows and explosive mines both work because each contains an explosive fire crystal. The crystal is triggered to detonate from an impact, supplied by collision with a surface in the case of the fire arrow, and a clockwork mechanism in the case of the mine. Why then has no inventor ever thought to stuff a tiny one of these crystals down a hollow metal tube, stick an arrow in after it and then use clockwork to detonate the crystal in order to launch the arrow out at enemies with superhuman speed? (And this is me assuming ignoring that TDM doesn't already have straight-up cannons sitting around as props in some mission.)
 

Unless... maybe small fire crystals are much more impact sensitive than the larger specimens, making them unsafe for use in a man portable device. Where could an idea like that lead us for world building?

Maybe the main doctrine of war in this world is to have loose formations of archers equipped with fire arrows, capable of annihilating even the most heavily armored squads of enemies at 100 paces. Imagine what that does to warfare. Stealth and ambush become your best defense. Warfare evolves into elaborate sniper duels, where the moment you knock your fire arrow you either win or you die! So some elite soldiers revert back to using broad-heads, hunting their foes from the shadows.

Maybe in some future FM we get to play one of these soldiers, either on a special infiltration mission, or returned from war with a certain set of skills. Or maybe we get an FM about a rogue inventor developing a new fire crystal formula that is more stable, and now he has this insane new weapon: a man-cannon that can kill beyond the range of any bow. Now he's selling the formula to the Minoans and our thief has to steal it... Many exciting possibilities; but that is only one example.

Edited June 13, 2024 by ChronA
Started playing Foreign Affairs and found the ship's cannon deck

[tib]

On 6/12/2024 at 8:02 PM, wesp5 said:

Explosives exist in TDM? In what missions? Also the "Dresden Files" book series has a nice explanation why magic and technology don't work together: using magic near advanced technology breaks it!