Bug: My map crashes on load now. :(

[Nort]

 

I strongly suspect that it has something to do with me having set worldspawn to target an entity, as described here and here.

However, when I remove this targeting, my map still keeps crashing.

Is there any way to get it to work again?

In any case, I think there should at least be some error handling for this.

In the worst case scenario, I can revert back to an earlier version that hasn't been ruined, but not all mappers make backups of their maps.

[datiswous]

What is the console saying during dmap ?

[Nort]

27 minutes ago, datiswous said:

What is the console saying during dmap ?

Aha. I was completely wrong in my assumption. The console warned that it had removed entities that were bound to eachother, in order to avoid "creating a loop". When I removed those two entities, the map started working again. ...and so now I'm suspecting that it's the "bind":s that I set on them, targeting eachother, that's actually causing the crashes. It's possible that I only need one bind - we'll see...

In any case, it's poor error handling.

Gonna eat something now - I'll update you later.

 

Update

I simply removed one "bind" to get the map working again. (The worldspawn connection is working as it should.)

...so in summary, the engine simply doesn't break "bind" loops correctly.

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nort

[JackFarmer]

No offence, but why don't you simply post all your questions in the Newbie thread ?

Quote

In any case, I think there should at least be some error handling for this.

I dare saying that you won't make friends here if you repeatedly point out the shortcomings of the mod when - according to your own account - you do not even plan to finish a mission.

 

Quote

not all mappers make backups of their maps.

 

This is then extremely bad project management and anyone who is seriously interested in creating DM missions must think about appropriate backups and versions. You can read here what longtime contributor Orbweaver has to say on that topic. His tone might be a bit too harsh, but he's basically right.

Don't get me wrong, I admire how you've been digging into this for the past few weeks, but you're overshooting the mark a bit here. It might also be a good idea if you took a few days off. I have the impression that you're already going in the direction of burnout. You should prevent this if you really want to provide an interesting mission we all can enjoy.

[Nort]

5 hours ago, JackFarmer said:

No offence, but why don't you simply post all your questions in the Newbie thread ?

I dare saying that you won't make friends here if you repeatedly point out the shortcomings of the mod when - according to your own account - you do not even plan to finish a mission.

 

 

This is then extremely bad project management and anyone who is seriously interested in creating DM missions must think about appropriate backups and versions. You can read here what longtime contributor Orbweaver has to say on that topic. His tone might be a bit too harsh, but he's basically right.

Don't get me wrong, I admire how you've been digging into this for the past few weeks, but you're overshooting the mark a bit here. It might also be a good idea if you took a few days off. I have the impression that you're already going in the direction of burnout. You should prevent this if you really want to provide an interesting mission we all can enjoy.

 

"No offence, but why don't you simply post all your questions in the Newbie thread ?"

Because first of all, I can't quite figure out this forum's categorization system, and so I actually went looking for that very thread yesterday, without success, because I couldn't even figure out in what sub-forum to even look for it.

Second of all, if doesn't matter if the cause of a crash is easy or hard. Editors shouldn't crash, especially after recognizing a problem, trying to handle it, and failing.

Third of all, I've actually been mapping for quite a while prior to moving to this editor, and joining this forum. Don't just go "Oh, he can't figure out a simple bind. What a noob!", just because you saw the word "bind".

 

"I dare saying that you won't make friends here if you repeatedly point out the shortcomings of the mod"

So I'm being mean? Is that what you're saying?

Reporting bugs is very different from heckling a project. Every bug I report is done out of love, and with wanting to see the project fixed and improved. So far I haven't seen any signs of developers' feelings somehow being hurt, or them suffering anxiety attacks over bugs. Bugs are a common part of sizable projects in development, and pointing them out is actually part of the development process.

 

"when - according to your own account - you do not even plan to finish a mission."

I actually think that my bug reports are far more helpful than my fan missions would ever be. Few of you would even play my missions if I released them, but you're all using the editor, and likely enjoy when it runs flawlessly.

 

"This is then extremely bad project management and anyone who is seriously interested in creating DM missions must think about appropriate backups and versions."

So what you're saying, is that users should simply expect the editor to ruin maps every once in a while. Well, first of all, I actually think that the editor can improve beyond that, and second of all, if the projects of newbies are ruined, they will grow discouraged and will abandon using the editor, and that's future experienced mappers lost.

That a program doesn't crash, is the minimum that I expect out of it. Reporting these sort of bugs are as important to the developers, as me reporting falling through map geometry.

 

...but maybe you're also saying that I'm posting too much overall, and that may be true. I'll try to post less, and find other things to do.

[JackFarmer]

Quote

Because first of all, I can't quite figure out this forum's categorization system, and so I actually went looking for that very thread yesterday, without success, because I couldn't even figure out in what sub-forum to even look for it.

Now you know.

Quote

Second of all, if doesn't matter if the cause of a crash is easy or hard. Editors shouldn't crash, especially after recognizing a problem, trying to handle it, and failing.

Hm, to my experience, crashes in free software is a regular thing. Try "Natron" and you will understand what I mean.

 

Quote

Third of all, I've actually been mapping for quite a while prior to moving to this editor, and joining this forum. Don't just go "Oh, he can't figure out a simple bind. What a noob!", just because you saw the word "bind".

Lots of longtime DR mappers ask questions in the Newbie thread (myself included). Nothing to be ashamed of and by DR/DM standards you are a newbie (and you have not to be ashamed of that as well! )

Quote

Reporting bugs is very different from heckling a project. Every bug I report is done out of love, and with wanting to see the project fixed and improved.

 If you want to report a bug, then please use the Bug Tracker.

There is also a guideline how to identify a bug somewhere - can't find it now.

 

Quote

So what you're saying, is that users should simply expect the editor to ruin maps every once in a while. Well, first of all, I actually think that the editor can improve beyond that, and second of all, if the projects of newbies are ruined, they will grow discouraged and will abandon using the editor, and that's future experienced mappers lost.

That a program doesn't crash, is the minimum that I expect out of it. Reporting these sort of bugs are as important to the developers, as me reporting falling through map geometry.

Free software - see above and  also see OrbWeavers comment in the linked thead above. You wouldn't believe how many mappers lost WIPs because of defective hardware and thus again: backup management is vital and problems with the mod are just one critical aspect to consider when establishing a backup system.

 

Quote

...but maybe you're also saying that I'm posting too much overall, and that may be true. I'll try to post less, and find other things to do.

I don't know, you tell me. However, for somebody who expects Armageddon in the near future (and there are really good reasons for that), you have a pronounced need for communication. I think that does not fit, because:  Why go on with communication when all hell will break lose the day after tomorrow? 

Anyway, I did not want to offend you and I think it was a mistake to start my replay with a question ("why don't you simply post all your questions in the Newbie thread ?"). I apologize for that and I hope that you - despite of your own assessment -  will finish your WIP and we all can enjoy a cool new mission in the future with your name in the credits.

 

Edited May 26, 2022 by JackFarmer
typos

[Nort]

10 minutes ago, JackFarmer said:

Now you know.

Hm, to my experience, crashes in free software is a regular thing. Try "Natron" and you will understand what I mean.

 

Lots of longtime DR mappers ask questions in the Newbie thread (myself included). Nothing to be ashamed of and by DR/DM standards you are a newbie (and you have not to be ashamed of that as well! )

 If you want to report a bug, then please use the Bug Tracker.

There is also a guideline how to identify a bug somewhere - can't find it now.

 

Free software - see above and  also see OrbWeavers comment in the linked thead above. You wouldn't believe how many mappers lost WIPs because of defective hardware and thus again: backup management is vital and problems with the mod are just one critical aspect to consider when establishing a backup system.

 

I don't know, you tell me. However, for somebody who expects Armageddon in the near future (and there are really good reasons for that), you have a pronounced need for communication. I think that does not fit, because:  Why go on with communication when all hell will break lose the day after tomorrow? 

Anyway, I did not want to offend you and I think it was a mistake to start my replay with a question ("why don't you simply post all your questions in the Newbie thread ?"). I apologize for that and I hope that you - despite of your own assessment -  will finish your WIP and we all can enjoy a cool new mission in the future with your name in the credits.

 

I think that the existence of a dedicated bug tracker for this engine proves that I should somehow make it known when it crashes. I just figured that the tracker was an internal thing between developers, and that it was okay to instead report the bugs here, especially since I desperately needed help with it, and since you have two sub-forums mentioning that they're intended for reporting bugs.

...so why, when I report a bug, am I getting shamed for it? Why was the guy in the thread you linked getting shamed for not backing up his project, instead of the main dev acknowledging that there is a very deceptive button in the engine, that can remove fan mission folders when you press it? Blaming the reporter for not backing up his work, is certainly not how I would personally handle reports of entire projects disappearing, but I guess now I'm warned about how he sees these things, to the point where I'm wondering if it's a good idea to report any bugs I find in the future, at all, if I'm just going to be considered a bad person for it.

 

"Hm, to my experience, crashes in free software is a regular thing. Try "Natron" and you will understand what I mean."

I don't understand your point. If crashes happen frequently enough, should we treat them like Covid and just "try to live with it"? I'm pretty sure that the bind bug is easy to fix, but it's like you're saying that bugs have a right to exist too.

 

"Lots of longtime DR mappers ask questions in the Newbie thread (myself included). Nothing to be ashamed of and by DR/DM standards you are a newbie (and you have not to be ashamed of that as well! )"

So if I've programmed for 30 years, mapped for Dromed for countless years (since roughly the turn of the millenia), mapped for the Dark Mod for 1 year, but joined these forums just a few weeks ago, I'm a newbie. I think that by that definition, the word "newbie" has lost all meaning. Besides, reporting crashes are not the same as just asking questions. Anyone can reply to a question. It takes a developer to fix a crash issue. ...and it's like you don't expect the developers to even fix crashes, and I really hope that you're wrong about that. For example, since I updated to this year's version, Dark Radiant itself, hasn't even crashed once, and it used to crash all the time, and so I take that as evidence that development involves fixing crashes.

 

"If you want to report a bug, then please use the Bug Tracker."

Will do. I was just fooled by the subforum descriptions actually telling me to report bugs in them.

 

"You wouldn't believe how many mappers lost WIPs because of defective hardware"

Again: I don't see your point here, where you argue for not fixing defective hardware. When I'm told about a bug in my program, I just go "Thank you. I'll fix that.". I don't go "Well, weren't you a sucker for using my program.". That's not how I was brought up at all.

 

"for somebody who expects Armageddon in the near future (and there are really good reasons for that), you have a pronounced need for communication. I think that does not fit, because:  Why go on with communication when all hell will break lose the day after tomorrow?"

Well, why not? Yes, I am so interested in mapping, that it's actually cutting into my apocalypse survival routines a bit, but that's just human nature, and a month's vacation from prepping, won't make that much of a difference.

 

"I hope that you - despite of your own assessment -  will finish your WIP and we all can enjoy a cool new mission in the future with your name in the credits."

Well, for me, mapping is about pleasing myself - not others. Play The Beginner's Guide, and you'll see what I mean.

[OrbWeaver]

I'm confused — are you saying that the game crashes on loading your map, or the editor (DarkRadiant) crashes on loading your map? Those are very different issues that will need to be solved by different people.

Based on the first post I thought you were talking about the game, but when you say "editors shouldn't crash" that makes it sound like DR is the problem.

[Nort]

3 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

I'm confused — are you saying that the game crashes on loading your map, or the editor (DarkRadiant) crashes on loading your map? Those are very different issues that will need to be solved by different people.

Based on the first post I thought you were talking about the game, but when you say "editors shouldn't crash" that makes it sound like DR is the problem.

Oh, I mistyped. It's The Dark Mod engine that crashes when the map tries to load - not the Dark Radiant editor.

Edit:
...and if it's specific to the entity type, the two entities bound together (via setting each of their "bind" properties to target eachother, as usual) were "atdm:mover_door_sliding" entities.

Edited May 27, 2022 by Nort

[duzenko]

You coud upoad the problematic WIP somewhere for us to look at it

[Nort]

1 minute ago, duzenko said:

You coud upoad the problematic WIP somewhere for us to look at it

So binding two "atdm:mover_door_sliding" entities didn't make the map crash on your end?

Look, I'm heading for bed shortly, but if you can't get it to work in the next 12 hours, I'll try to recreate it on my end. Just tell me which of the six files it is that you need, and where you want me to upload them. (I doubt they're small enough to attach here.)

You will not get my entire map. You will get a 6 brush room containing a start entity and a bug, once I isolate it.

[Nort]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:35 AM, duzenko said:

You coud upoad the problematic WIP somewhere for us to look at it

I'm posting a reminder in case you forgot, because it's been over 24 hours now, and I haven't heard back from you. Have you been able to reproduce the bug? Where do I upload the files, and exactly which files?

 

[duzenko]

13 hours ago, Nort said:

I'm posting a reminder in case you forgot, because it's been over 24 hours now, and I haven't heard back from you. Have you been able to reproduce the bug? Where do I upload the files, and exactly which files?

 

No, I have not

You could upload to e.g. Google drive

Anything that shows the problem

[Nort]

33 minutes ago, duzenko said:

No, I have not

You could upload to e.g. Google drive

Anything that shows the problem

I am asking you if you need the "*.cm" file, the "*.darkradiant" file, the "*.map" file, and/or the "*.proc" file. ...but since the "*.cm" and the "*.proc" files were created a minute later than the "*.map" and the "*.darkradiant" file, that would mean that they were created during compile, and since the "*.darkradiant" file only seems to contain the settings for Dark Radiant, I think that you're actually asking for the "*.map" file.

Now you know which file you actually need, the next time you ask for a map.

...and since the "*.map" file happens to only be 1-5kB, I can attach it to this very post, so here you go. (I've verified that it does crash on engine load, and it's as simple as can be. Remember to compile it first.)

DoubleBindCrash.map

Edited May 30, 2022 by Nort

[duzenko]

@Nort

What's the expected behavior for entities bound to each other?

[Nort]

1 minute ago, duzenko said:

@Nort

What's the expected behavior for entities bound to each other?

I figured that I needed the double bind because either halves of the sliding door can be triggered, and thought that if I only had a bind in one direction, one half would slide unbound (without bringing the other half with it).

My problem isn't that a single bind still works both ways, but that the engine tries to resolve this issue upon load, and then fails and crashes. ...and so there I expected it to at least remove the bound entities and have the rest of the map still load and work, and at best only remove one of the binds, and just give me a console warning about it.

[duzenko]

Fixed in svn (revision: 9923) if I understand the problem correctly

[Nort]

2 minutes ago, duzenko said:

Fixed in svn (revision: 9923) if I understand the problem correctly

I can't read your mind, but I trust that it's fixed. Thank you.

[JackFarmer]

On 5/27/2022 at 12:58 AM, Nort said:

 

I think that the existence of a dedicated bug tracker for this engine proves that I should somehow make it known when it crashes. I just figured that the tracker was an internal thing between developers, and that it was okay to instead report the bugs here, especially since I desperately needed help with it, and since you have two sub-forums mentioning that they're intended for reporting bugs.

...so why, when I report a bug, am I getting shamed for it? Why was the guy in the thread you linked getting shamed for not backing up his project, instead of the main dev acknowledging that there is a very deceptive button in the engine, that can remove fan mission folders when you press it? Blaming the reporter for not backing up his work, is certainly not how I would personally handle reports of entire projects disappearing, but I guess now I'm warned about how he sees these things, to the point where I'm wondering if it's a good idea to report any bugs I find in the future, at all, if I'm just going to be considered a bad person for it.

 

"Hm, to my experience, crashes in free software is a regular thing. Try "Natron" and you will understand what I mean."

I don't understand your point. If crashes happen frequently enough, should we treat them like Covid and just "try to live with it"? I'm pretty sure that the bind bug is easy to fix, but it's like you're saying that bugs have a right to exist too.

 

"Lots of longtime DR mappers ask questions in the Newbie thread (myself included). Nothing to be ashamed of and by DR/DM standards you are a newbie (and you have not to be ashamed of that as well! )"

So if I've programmed for 30 years, mapped for Dromed for countless years (since roughly the turn of the millenia), mapped for the Dark Mod for 1 year, but joined these forums just a few weeks ago, I'm a newbie. I think that by that definition, the word "newbie" has lost all meaning. Besides, reporting crashes are not the same as just asking questions. Anyone can reply to a question. It takes a developer to fix a crash issue. ...and it's like you don't expect the developers to even fix crashes, and I really hope that you're wrong about that. For example, since I updated to this year's version, Dark Radiant itself, hasn't even crashed once, and it used to crash all the time, and so I take that as evidence that development involves fixing crashes.

 

"If you want to report a bug, then please use the Bug Tracker."

Will do. I was just fooled by the subforum descriptions actually telling me to report bugs in them.

 

"You wouldn't believe how many mappers lost WIPs because of defective hardware"

Again: I don't see your point here, where you argue for not fixing defective hardware. When I'm told about a bug in my program, I just go "Thank you. I'll fix that.". I don't go "Well, weren't you a sucker for using my program.". That's not how I was brought up at all.

 

"for somebody who expects Armageddon in the near future (and there are really good reasons for that), you have a pronounced need for communication. I think that does not fit, because:  Why go on with communication when all hell will break lose the day after tomorrow?"

Well, why not? Yes, I am so interested in mapping, that it's actually cutting into my apocalypse survival routines a bit, but that's just human nature, and a month's vacation from prepping, won't make that much of a difference.

 

"I hope that you - despite of your own assessment -  will finish your WIP and we all can enjoy a cool new mission in the future with your name in the credits."

Well, for me, mapping is about pleasing myself - not others. Play The Beginner's Guide, and you'll see what I mean.

Oh vey, Baby.

Edited June 4, 2022 by JackFarmer
Better abstract