Jump to content

Slam doors open while running


snatcher
 Share

Recommended Posts

I personally don’t think it’s counter intuitive for the door to open quickly in either direction - this to me is the entire point. IRL You can hurriedly swing a door in either direction and this is not IRL after all so I think narrowing it down limits the use case for an already situational mechanic and the inconstancy is more likely to be confusing to players.

The action of running through the door does look quite smooth and slick I think - I like it. It’s still hard for me to tell overall if the running action is the best thing to anchor this to but as setup in the test map it looks like it works well.

How far and in what conditions are you thinking the alert stim will propagate?

Edited by Wellingtoncrab
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the sound should be somewhere between the noise of a heavy object falling and a noisemaker maybe, so that nearby guards get alerted but not far away ones. I don't checked the numerical values yet, though, so this is up to tweaking.

How about the settings? Do you think the timing is fine or would you change the values?

 

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

How about the settings? Do you think the timing is fine or would you change the values?

 

To me the timing pretty much looks spot on for the move_time of the door -  fast enough to smoothly move through at a sprint with the door just getting out of the player as they traverse through.

Obviously given the whole customizable move_time spawnarg thing there’s probably not a great fit all sizes solution there. I imagine more often than not doors are kept at their default properties so it would make sense to balance around that. Or perhaps bias towards a faster modifier to cover more edge cases.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reminds me of the quality of life improvements we did with separating mantle heights to a longer or shorter climb animation, depending on the distance. I'm definitely a supporter of this improvement.

On a side note, how funny would it be if AI could optionally, also slam doors when running (or in alert state)?

  • Like 2

Modeler galore & co-authors literally everything

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Epifire said:

On a side note, how funny would it be if AI could optionally, also slam doors when running (or in alert state)?

Sounds interesting. It would neglect the purpose a bit if all ai could use it (as it is intented to give the player some advantage), though. I need to think this through.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

Sounds interesting. It would neglect the purpose a bit if all ai could use it (as it is intented to give the player some advantage), though. I need to think this through.


My thought if QuickDoors became a fleshed out feature, would be to have an optional flag on the NPC that could toggle whether they're capable of turning on the speed. So in the end, you'd have mapper control of that across the NPCs. Maybe only have it so that it's off by default unless checked on. Could be useful in a scenario where you gotta bring some heat for the player to deal with.

Modeler galore & co-authors literally everything

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Very professional demonstration, Obsttorte. Thank you very much! Here is some food for thought for you:

1) Door opening in the same direction not only looked great in the video but it plays great! As Wellingtoncrab puts it: spot on! A keeper!

2) I admit I was reluctant about having the ability to close doors behind but having played with your demo I must say you made it work pretty well. You had a vision I didn't and you proved it works. Regardless, I am not that convinced we want it.

If you give players the ability to quickly close doors behind, then players will quickly learn that AI can (and will) get blocked by the very first door. Effective? Yes. Engaging? Hmm. For this new ability to be engaging AI should also have the ability to slam doors open so it gives players just a little advantage towards success.

On the contrary, if players know they cannot close doors behind unless they risk a difficult move then the chase goes on, making it for a lasting, more engaging experience, imho.

3) Doors opening in the opposite direction come with the problems we already anticipated.

Do we agree the vast majority of players will use these new features to run away from (already alerted) AI? Then that's our game dynamic. This isn't then about adding new abilities, it is about making this new game dynamic an engaging experience. For a thrilling experience to work players must trust your game dynamics and as a developer, you want players to avoid punishment at all costs.

Let's go for that door! s**t, I am stuck. Carry on, let's go for that one, coool it opened my way. Run, there, another one, s**t I am stuck. It is impossible to tell if a door will open right or not and chances are a thrilling run away will soon turn into a nightmare simply because players cannot control the new dynamic and they get constantly punished. If the game dynamic doesn't work, players will discard your offer and find other uses for the abilities.

Happy to discuss further.

Edited by snatcher

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, snatcher said:

@Obsttorte, Can we somehow test your prototype in any map or is it linked to the demo map? I would like to test the current offering under different scenarios.

Extract this into your TDM folder: fastdoor.zip

  • If you are using SVN or have extracted the game archives, you would have to backup the original files first. Otherwise there is nothing to do.
  • Note that I haven't added propagated sounds yet, so the ai won't notice the fast opening.
  • Sometimes the doors opens way faster then intented. Don't know yet was causing this.
14 hours ago, snatcher said:

Doors opening in the opposite direction come with the problems we already anticipated.

I would assume that if a player runs away, he runs into the direction he is coming from, hence knowing in which direction the doors open. If he chooses to run into a different direction he takes a calculated risk (he could also run into a dead end). That a doors opens into your direction when running away can happen now, too. I don't see that this gets worsened. It's the opposite. You can hardly run into the door if you approach it slightly from the side.

14 hours ago, snatcher said:

If you give players the ability to quickly close doors behind, then players will quickly learn that AI can (and will) get blocked by the very first door.

That's more or less the idea. It is still not the most simple move to be done when chased imho. And as stated, the parameters can be tweaked. The shorter the delay is between frobbing the door and it closing the better the timing of the player has to be. Currently it is half a second, which works pretty well. You can alter the scripts and use lower values and see if you get the timing right without blocking yourself.

14 hours ago, Epifire said:


My thought if QuickDoors became a fleshed out feature, would be to have an optional flag on the NPC that could toggle whether they're capable of turning on the speed. So in the end, you'd have mapper control of that across the NPCs. Maybe only have it so that it's off by default unless checked on. Could be useful in a scenario where you gotta bring some heat for the player to deal with.

Yes, or something maybe only elite guards are capable of. I would like to have a minimum standard here. If this is done differently in every FM, it might gets frustrating otherwise. It's like if the water stim of the water arrows would have a different range in every FM, or the jump height of the player would differ. It is something mappers can do to fit the theme of their FM, but it should be set in a way that the majority of the mappers don't have to change it to get a proper gameplay.

 

17 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

I imagine more often than not doors are kept at their default properties so it would make sense to balance around that. Or perhaps bias towards a faster modifier to cover more edge cases.

The opening speed is a multiplier. So if the mapper sets up a door to open slower (because it is heavy, for example), the fast opening will also happen slower. The delay when closing the door is fixed, though. In this regard it would be worth considering what one would expect here. I assume that slamming a door shut behind you is something that works worse with heavy doors, so the delay might be lower if the door opens slower.

🤔

  • Like 1

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

Extract this into your TDM folder: fastdoor.zip

Thank you very much but:

Quote

TDM 2.10/64 #9853 (1435:9853) win-x86_64 Feb 19 2022 18:32:58
2904 MHz Intel CPU with SSE & SSE2 & SSE3 & SSSE3 & SSE41 & AVX & AVX2 & FMA3
Winsock Initialized

------- # -------

Sys_InitNetworking: adding loopback interface
Found Intel CPU, features: SSE SSE2 SSE3 SSSE3 SSE41 AVX AVX2 FMA3
TDM using AVX2 for SIMD processing.
Found 0 new missions and 0 packages.
------ Initializing File System ------
Current search path:
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod/fms/lockner
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\fms\lockner\lockner.pk4 (22 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod/
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_wood01.pk4 (376 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_window01.pk4 (391 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_stone_sculpted01.pk4 (463 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_stone_natural01.pk4 (133 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_stone_flat01.pk4 (302 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_stone_cobblestones01.pk4 (226 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_stone_brick01.pk4 (520 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_sfx01.pk4 (69 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_roof01.pk4 (72 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_plaster01.pk4 (142 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_paint_paper01.pk4 (63 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_other01.pk4 (127 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_nature01.pk4 (287 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_metal01.pk4 (497 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_glass01.pk4 (51 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_fabric01.pk4 (43 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_door01.pk4 (177 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_decals01.pk4 (466 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_carpet01.pk4 (92 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_textures_base01.pk4 (421 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_standalone.pk4 (4 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals_decls01.pk4 (32 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals07.pk4 (1111 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals06.pk4 (696 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals05.pk4 (119 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals04.pk4 (2869 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals03.pk4 (743 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals02.pk4 (1299 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_vocals01.pk4 (82 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4 (605 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_sfx01.pk4 (971 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_ambient_decls01.pk4 (8 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_ambient03.pk4 (24 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_ambient02.pk4 (163 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_sound_ambient01.pk4 (220 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_prefabs01.pk4 (977 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_player01.pk4 (125 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_models_decls01.pk4 (103 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_models02.pk4 (2059 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_models01.pk4 (3179 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_gui_credits01.pk4 (49 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_gui01.pk4 (727 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_fonts01.pk4 (696 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_env01.pk4 (152 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_defs01.pk4 (189 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_base01.pk4 (209 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_steambots01.pk4 (31 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_monsters_spiders01.pk4 (80 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_undead01.pk4 (55 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_townsfolk01.pk4 (104 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_pagans01.pk4 (10 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_nobles01.pk4 (48 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_mages01.pk4 (8 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_heads01.pk4 (100 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_guards01.pk4 (378 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_females01.pk4 (172 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_builders01.pk4 (91 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_beasts02.pk4 (229 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_humanoid_beasts01.pk4 (23 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_base01.pk4 (9 files)
  H:\GAMES\The Dark Mod\tdm_ai_animals01.pk4 (82 files)
File System Initialized.
--------------------------------------
Couldn't open journal files
----- Initializing Decls -----
------------------------------
I18N: SetLanguage: 'english'.
I18N: Found no character remapping for english.
I18N: 1317 strings read from strings/english.lang
I18N: 'strings/fm/english.lang' not found.
execing default.cfg
Gamepad modifier button assigned to 6
execing Darkmod.cfg
execing DarkmodKeybinds.cfg
execing DarkmodPadbinds.cfg
Gamepad modifier button assigned to 6
Couldn't exec autoexec.cfg - file does not exist.
I18N: SetLanguage: 'english'.
I18N: Found no character remapping for english.
I18N: 1317 strings read from strings/english.lang
I18N: 'strings/fm/english.lang' not found.
----- Initializing OpenAL -----
Setup OpenAL device and context
OpenAL: found device 'OpenAL Soft on Speakers (Realtek(R) Audio)' [ACTIVE]
OpenAL: device 'OpenAL Soft on Speakers (Realtek(R) Audio)' opened successfully
OpenAL: HRTF is available
OpenAL vendor: OpenAL Community
OpenAL renderer: OpenAL Soft
OpenAL version: 1.1 ALSOFT 1.21.1
OpenAL: found EFX extension
OpenAL: HRTF is enabled (reason: 1 = ALC_HRTF_ENABLED_SOFT)
OpenAL: found 256 hardware voices
----- Initializing OpenGL -----
Initializing OpenGL subsystem
...getting default gamma ramp: success
...registered window class
...registered fake window class
...calling CDS: ok
...created window @ 0,0 (1920x1080)
Initializing OpenGL driver
...getting DC: succeeded
...PIXELFORMAT 12 selected
...creating GL context: core-fc
...making context current: succeeded
...initializing QGL

------- Input Initialization -------
Initializing DirectInput...
mouse: DirectInput initialized.
keyboard: DirectInput initialized.
------------------------------------
OpenGL vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
OpenGL renderer: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB/PCIe/SSE2
OpenGL version: 3.3.0 NVIDIA 512.35 core
Checking required OpenGL features...
v - using GL_VERSION_3_3
v - using GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc
v - using WGL_VERSION_1_0
v - using WGL_ARB_pixel_format
Checking optional OpenGL extensions...
v - using GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic
    maxTextureAnisotropy: 16.000000
v - using GL_ARB_stencil_texturing
v - using GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test
v - using GL_ARB_buffer_storage
v - using GL_ARB_texture_storage
v - using GL_ARB_multi_draw_indirect
v - using GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_binding
v - using GL_ARB_bindless_texture
X - GL_ARB_compatibility not found
v - using GL_KHR_debug
v - using WGL_EXT_swap_control
Max active texture units in fragment shader: 32
Max combined texture units: 192
Max anti-aliasing samples: 32
Max geometry output vertices: 1024
Max geometry output components: 1024
Max vertex attribs: 16
---------- R_ReloadGLSLPrograms_f -----------
Linking GLSL program cubeMap ...
Linking GLSL program bumpyEnvironment ...
Linking GLSL program depthAlpha ...
Linking GLSL program fog ...
Linking GLSL program oldStage ...
Linking GLSL program blend ...
Linking GLSL program stencilshadow ...
Linking GLSL program shadowMapA ...
Linking GLSL program shadowMapN ...
Linking GLSL program shadowMapNG ...
Linking GLSL program ambientInteraction ...
Linking GLSL program interactionStencil ...
Linking GLSL program interactionShadowMaps ...
Linking GLSL program interactionMultiLight ...
Linking GLSL program frob ...
Linking GLSL program soft_particle ...
Linking GLSL program tonemap ...
Linking GLSL program gaussian_blur ...
Linking GLSL program volumetric ...
---------------------------------
Font fonts/english/stone in size 12 not found, using size 24 instead.
--------- Initializing Game ----------
The Dark Mod 2.10/64, win-x86_64, code revision 9853
Build date: Feb 19 2022
Initializing event system
...866 event definitions
Initializing class hierarchy
...172 classes, 859072 bytes for event callbacks
Initializing scripts
--------- Game Map Shutdown ----------
--------- Game Map Shutdown done -----
ERROR:Error: file script/tdm_lights.script, line 249: delay redeclared


--------------------------------------
Error during initialization. Error: file script/tdm_lights.script, line 249: delay redeclared


Shutting down OpenGL subsystem
...wglMakeCurrent( NULL, NULL 😞 success
...deleting GL context: success
...releasing DC: success
...destroying window
...resetting display
...restoring hardware gamma: success
...shutting down QGL

 

Edited by snatcher

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, obviously the changes didn't get saved, why ever. Here is the fixed version.

fastdoor.zip

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Thank you very much 🙂 !

Initial tests running like crazy on a random map... opening doors that slide in the direction you are going is absolutely satisfying.

Stumbling upon doors that slide towards you is getting frustrating mainly because the door opens and my area of movement gets reduced.

Lessons learned: let's re-plan and try approaching doors from the opposite angle the door should open (I must think this way for all doors now) my brain cannot parse everything: where I come from, where I am going, what's ahead, what's behind (AI chasing sounds), how do I approach that next door.

I would really love to test a version in which if the door opens in the opposite direction I get a "uh" sound and the door does not open.

Edited by snatcher

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Oh, and I haven't gotten started with closing doors. I just can't think of everything right now.

The initial feeling is what counts. Does it feel right? Brain adjustments and muscle memory will soon kick in and I will get used to the mechanic and its shortcomings.

Of course, impressions can differ from player to player.

Edited by snatcher

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The best way (but not necessarely the easiest one) to tell players in which direction a door opens would be to us doors that actually have hinges. Irl you mostly can tell in which direction a door opens by its look. A bit easier would it be not to place the doors in the midst of a doorframe, but close to the side it opens to.

However. I may stress again that the intention is to make fleeing as an option more attractive. This does neither imply that fleeing is always an option nor that it is without risk, especially if the player doesn't invest thoughts into it.

And turning TDM into a parcour game isn't the intention either. You should not run through a mission constantly using this feature. Just an option in case you mess things up.

The way you describe makes sense generally. But in the case of a stealth game not so much. It actually reads as if you would describe a match in Unreal Tournament :D

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hear you! Personally, fleeing as an option would be very attractive as long as I know the game allows me to pull it off. Otherwise I am not sure I will rather opt for the proven strategy: align for landing, stop running in front of the door, adjust position, open it.

Thanks for your tolerance in your responses. It's a nice debate.

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really doubt that i would use this feature myself and chases are a pretty rare occurence in my playstyle anyway.
But enabling humanoid AI in general to open unlocked doors whithout pausing could make AI door handling look way less robotic.
Slamming em open would definitely be a bit over the top most of the time though. So the quick open probability and door open/close speed factors should probably be configurable for each alert level on the AI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I found a very good testbed for Obsttorte's fastdoor patch: b1k3rdude's excellent Alberic's curse.

If you haven't played this mission yet do not spoil it! It's a very good mission so make sure to play it first the way intended. I personally like this mission a lot and recommend it.

Spoiler

Launch the map and noclip inside the cloister. Quick save and start running around. The location has a few floors and a plethora of narrow, interconnected corridors, filled with nasty AI. Oh, and all doors close automatically after a while.

Share your experience!

Edited by snatcher

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I agree that this feature would be a nice addition, I believe it would need to be combined with a feature of my patch, namely removement of the alert-KO-immunity of most guards. After all what sense makes running away and hiding if afterwards I can't knock out any guards anymore? Or do they go back to not-alerted-and-not-KO-immune after a time?

Edited by wesp5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been storming through the level and I am getting good at it. I have learned I must approach all doors in the same way and I only get stuck from time to time when a door opens towards me.

WELL DONE, Obsttorte! I am extremely satisfied with your prototype.

I would definitively remove the ability to quickly close doors behind. The player is quite powerful already with his upgraded abilities. Doors close normal and if you want to close that door, well, you know the risks. Did I detect a kind of a bug where doors close extremely fast? As if something doesn't complete, a state doesn't change and speed doubles exponentially?

Last, you were right from the very beginning: we aren't "slamming doors open" and we don't require fancy quick-door sounds. It all feels very natural already. I leave to you whether AI gets alerted or not in a different way... between my foot steps and all light I go through when running, AI detects me pretty fast already.

TDM Modpack v2.0 (20/11/2022) - Visit:

Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, wesp5 said:

After all what sense makes running away and hiding if afterwards I can't knock out any guards anymore? Or do they go back to not-alerted-and-not-KO-immune after a time?

Ko immuntiy and alert state are tied together. So if the ai calms down, you can knock em out again.

 

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

Did I detect a kind of a bug where doors close extremely fast? As if something doesn't complete, a state doesn't change and speed doubles exponentially?

 

12 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

Sometimes the doors opens way faster then intented. Don't know yet was causing this.

It was a lengthy post ;)

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

Last, you were right from the very beginning

was anyone really doubting that :P

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

It all feels very natural already. I leave to you whether AI gets alerted or not in a different way... between my foot steps and all light I go through when running, AI detects me pretty fast already.

Well, in regards to making it a emergency feature and not the natural way of moving it probably makes sense to add a suspicious sound.

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

Iwould definitively remove the ability to quickly close doors behind. The player is quite powerful already with his upgraded abilities.

Either that or reduce the delay and may give the ai the ability to open the doors faster when alerted, too. As @Oktokolo stated it looks really akward when alerted guards open doors in slow-mo.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

Ko immuntiy and alert state are tied together. So if the ai calms down, you can knock em out again.

So how long does it take? I can't remember ever seeing a guard sheathing his sword again...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

So how long does it take? I can't remember ever seeing a guard sheathing his sword again...

It doesn't always happen and when it happens it takes pretty darn long - so it actually is pretty relistic in that regard... 🤪

I normally just treat full detection as a fail and pretend it didn't happen (by quickloading). Today there is no way to pull deescallation off in a believable way - in the general case. Authors obviously could add reinforcements and methodical room cleaning to their maps. But no one actually does as deescallation obviously isn't seen as part of the intended gameplay...
I wouldn't even have added player combat at all. Detection means defeat. Fade-to-black and then you either get the mission failed screen or wake up wherever the map author defined (probably the local holding cell) and perform your escape from there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, it takes very long for them to calm down. That is something Thi4f did definetely better. While many complained that the compareable fast cooldown times are unrealistic and easen the game, they at least provided a good gameplay which does not require you to either quickload immedetially or to sit on shelf unreachable to the ai anyways for minutes just to wait for the them to calm down again, which at least gives you some time to make yourself a coffee.

8 hours ago, Oktokolo said:

I normally just treat full detection as a fail and pretend it didn't happen (by quickloading).

That is you then. However, both TDM and the original games as well as almost every other stealth game hand the player weapons and other not so stealthy gadgets. So combat and fleeing has always been part of the game mechanics. It is just that a little stealth elite that thinks, that ghosting a mission is the way it is meant to be played.

An attitude that imho comes from the lack of stealth games in general, where people replaying the same games over and over again start adding house rules for a challenge that they after a while they considered to be the standard. Something that sadly also shows in the TDM fms, where gameplay easely falls apart if you do not choose a ghosting approach and also seen in the reactions when criticising that, where typical responses are that it would been better to not use the blackjack or the other weapons too often making me wonder, while I get them handed out in the first place.

 

8 hours ago, Oktokolo said:

Detection means defeat

Death means defeat. Everything else should be considered challenges to deal with.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

So combat and fleeing has always been part of the game mechanics.

Yes, but as I wrote, the KO-immunity provokes quickloading because otherwise you would either need to wait a long time for everybody to cool down or you can't knockout anybody anymore. Which of course is my preferred style of playing :)!

Edited by wesp5
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


  • Recent Status Updates

    • freyk

      Tried to make a tdm advertisement commentpost at one of civvie11 youtube videos about T2. Post got marked as spam. His problem (to not discover TDM for himself),..not my problem.
      But some help of some fellow TDM yt-videocomment posters would be nice. To ask him and others, to play TDM. To get more players/creators. 
      · 0 replies
    • datiswous

      Currently Profile Information has 3 fields, these are shown in forum posts under your avatar:
      1. Gender
      2. Location
      3. Interests
      I think that it could be useful to have an extra field called "Operating system" (under location). It can be useful for tech support and to see what people use.
      Alternatively it could be a more general term, like PC system, so that you can for example state that you use an AMD gpu.
      · 2 replies
    • OrbWeaver

      Greetings fellow kids.
      · 11 replies
    • Crafty_Creeper

      Keep on Creeping on...
       
      · 3 replies
    • datiswous

      Just found out piped.kavin.rocks has a build-in audio-only for video's (great for music video's). Never thought something like this (including browser extensions) excisted. This would have saved me a lot of money on vacation, where I was camping without wifi.
      · 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...