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Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod (v1.2)


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I am a complete idiot when it comes to 3D and I need some help. I don't want to spoil what this is about but will provide full details privately.

I exported from DarkRadiant the simplest object you can think of in *.ase format. The model is fine and it doesn't require 3D editing but I would like to skin it. I (think I) have all resources we need except knowledge.

Someone with some experience with models is all I need. Anyone willing to assist?

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  • snatcher changed the title to Snatcher's Workshop - Mods for The Dark Mod (v1.2)

Mods for The Dark Mod v1.2 released in the opening post

  • Introducing: PLAYER SKILLS MOD - LOCATION v1.0
  • Credits: snatcher, Obsttorte.

Some background:

When I started playing TDM I missed a way of "marking" a location when exploring mansions, sewers, vents, crypts... or any other large or complex area. I like having maps but never really liked auto-maps. We could take notes in the map like in the original Thief series but not all missions come with maps and besides, the feature isn't available in TDM. We must think of something else.

I started toying with decals but decals don't last long and I wasn't satisfied with such simple approach anyway. After some thoughts I came up with the idea of allowing the protagonist to "drop" something at specific points, that way players can tell if they have been there before. Simple, effective, but more importantly, the mechanic challenges you to think and plan.

Now, what would this "Marker" look like? Coins.... Pebbles... Flowers... Wood pellets... Aha! Playing cards! Lightweight, thin but large, inconspicuous to a degree, perfect for both populated and countryside areas.

In my view, the whole concept is hilarious but cool and grounded at the same time. I hope you get a similar feeling.

Shadowmark.jpg

Although the "Shadowmark" is more of a tool it goes to the Skills category for easy access and to differentiate it from custom items in missions.

Cards can be gently dropped or thrown in the air and retrieved. Cards will occasionally land in unreachable places or hide in bushes or dirt and rarely, go for a trip beyond the boundaries of the world. You start with a full deck of 52 cards and should have plenty.

AI will not normally mind a single card laying around but a bunch of cards in a spot will raise AI attention. Placing cards in the shadows is a good idea but tossing cards in the air when AI is around isn't... or is it?

Regarding sounds, cards don't make any noise that can be detected by AI. Cards muffle sound (hint, hint) but I want this mechanic to remain strictly visual.

I hope you find this new skill amusing and useful. Visit the opening post for the download.

Cheers!

Here is the full changelog:

Quote

v1.2 - New features

- Reorganization of the code not to lose sanity going forward. "TDM" replaced with "MOD" where appropriate.
- Minor adjustments and tweaks here and there.
- LOOT ANIMATIONS MOD v1.1: Added animations to loot bound to other entities.
- PLAYER SKILLS MOD - MANIPULATION v1.1: Fixed an issue with flames too close to ceilings. Colorful HUD icon.
- PLAYER SKILLS MOD - DISTRACTION v1.1: New whistle sound. Colorful HUD icon.
- PLAYER SKILLS MOD - LOCATION v1.0: Initial release.

 

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The best thing you can do is the right thing, my friend.

---

The current situation with candle flames is still a little messy. Since the grab-frob-drop annoyance was never addressed feature didn't satisfy all, candles with on-frob extinguish/ignite attributes started to pop up here and there. Consistency is definitively killed, the snowball will keep rolling. I am not sure what to do with these skin lit / unlit cases. Perhaps is a lost cause.

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19 hours ago, snatcher said:

Since the grab-frob-drop annoyance was never addressed feature didn't satisfy all, candles with on-frob extinguish/ignite attributes started to pop up here and there. Consistency is definitively killed, the snowball will keep rolling.

I use the patch to play all missions and have the feeling that most mission authors use the core lamp assets and only very few make their own for which your blow skill works fine. If you want full consistency we would need to edit all other missions which is easily possible but might be a lot of work.

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It is ok. I sometimes stumble across and odd candle and get a little paranoid.

The "Blow" attacks small flames, not the holders, as if it was a stim of water (although it isn't). Both the flame and its holder react naturally, as in shooting a water arrow. The same is true for "Ignite", but as if it was a fire arrow, if you like.

Sometimes though, custom candles are set to be extinguished on frob but creators didn't take into account water arrows, and the "unlit" skin doesn't' change accordingly. I will not be addressing particular cases, I rather leave "oddities" in the open.

I have mixed feelings in this area with the Unofficial Patch. Oil flames are frobable in a mission but the same oil flames aren't frobable in the next mission. And then you offer the Blow. I don't know. Time to re-evaluate and settle to a common approach?

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18 hours ago, snatcher said:

I have mixed feelings in this area with the Unofficial Patch. Oil flames are frobable in a mission but the same oil flames aren't frobable in the next mission. And then you offer the Blow. I don't know. Time to re-evaluate and settle to a common approach?

If you mean just using blow, this doesn't work in my opinion as the main inconsistency stays, because oil lamps should be exstinguishable by frobbing in the TDM world and frobbing them is possible from a greater distance. Also I already found lamps where even blow doesn't work, like in the Accountant prequel mission. But speaking of improving things, I'm pretty satisfied with the static lights, but there is a bit of frob-on-frob-off issue if you exstinguish a moveable candle with the use key. Can you or Obsttorte please take a look if I did something wrong in the attached scripts? As for the playing cards, I will test this in the next missions I play to see if it is worth to be added. I would really like to have some feedback on this from other players here! If nobody will ever use it, adding it would not be necessary...

tdm_frobactions.script tdm_moveable_candles.def tdm_moveable_lights.def

Edited by wesp5
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3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

If you mean just using blow, this doesn't work in my opinion as the main inconsistency stays [...]

Not sure what inconsistency you are referring to. In base TDM? In TDM + my mod? In TDM + your patch?

3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

[...] because oil lamps should be exstinguishable by frobbing in the TDM world [...]

If I am to buy your argument it should state:

[...] oil lamps should be extinguishable and ignitable by frobbing in the TDM world [...]

Currently with your patch players get the frob highlight in extinguished oil lamps but no result. The patch introduces this inconsistency.

3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

Also I already found lamps where even blow doesn't work, like in the Accountant prequel mission.

I would like to have a look but I don't know which mission this is.

3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

But speaking of improving things, I'm pretty satisfied with the static lights, but there is a bit of frob-on-frob-off issue if you exstinguish a moveable candle with the use key. Can you or Obsttorte please take a look if I did something wrong in the attached scripts?

That's messed up up big time. I can have a look but no promises, I am done with candle and oil lamp work! I may try persuading a mapper or two in taking a step back, though... (for the greater good).

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35 minutes ago, snatcher said:

[...] oil lamps should be extinguishable and ignitable by frobbing in the TDM world [...]

Currently with your patch players get the frob highlight in extinguished oil lamps but no result. The patch introduces this inconsistency.

I already fixed that problem in one of the recent releases and I also told you the issue I have with igniting a lamp in your mod. In the original game there is a tool that mission authors can provide to light lamps. If you don't have that tool or a moveable burning candle or a fire arrow you can never light a lamp in TDM and thus mission authors can control this! I remember at least two missions where you need to light something, I think in one case it was an explosive and in another a light to open a secret door. By providing a free tool that can always light any lamp, these missions might break because the player could do this without getting the tool and thus mess up the order in which these missions need to be played.

Edited by wesp5
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31 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

I already fixed that problem in one of the recent releases [...]

I had v17.2 but diligently downloaded v17.4.

"Mission 1: A New Job" (or "Campaign Mission 1" as you name it): Head to the Canonbury Taber, there are many extinguished oil lamps around. Give it a try.

31 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

In the original game there is a tool that mission authors can provide to light lamps. If you don't have that tool or a moveable burning candle or a fire arrow you can never light a lamp in TDM and thus mission authors can control this! I remember at least two missions where you need to light something, I think in one case it was an explosive and in another a light to open a secret door. By providing a free tool that can always light any lamp, these missions might break because the player could do this without getting the tool and thus mess up the order in which these missions need to be played.

[...] these missions might break [...]

So be it. When I get to know which mission this is I will ask the mapper to switch the petty candle with a torch.

Extinguishing / igniting small flames in a game that is about light and shadows is fun. Standing in front of a small naked flame and be unable to do anything is not fun.

Edited by snatcher
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13 hours ago, snatcher said:

"Mission 1: A New Job" (or "Campaign Mission 1" as you name it): Head to the Canonbury Taber, there are many extinguished oil lamps around. Give it a try.

I will once I am home again. It could be a mission problem though, because I use the training mission for all my tests and the oil lamps there work fine. Still I can live with that more easily than with breaking a mission, which is a no-go for a patch as players have no idea that the patch did something wrong and not they themselves. This already happened when Dragofer and me experimented with containers and I got completely stuck in one mission as the result and had to remove the feature immediately! Sadly I don't remember the missions with ignitable objectives anymore, otherwise we might indeed be able to change them. I can only recommend to play as many missions with your mod as possible to find them.

Edited by wesp5
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13 hours ago, snatcher said:

Standing in front of a small naked flame and be unable to do anything is not fun.

I post twice, because I never figured out how to multi quote here. I agree with the flame and this is why I like to have Blow as a backup for those flames that my defs and scripts do not work with. As for the inconsistency, the main reason I added this feature years ago was that candles and oil lamps use the same flames, so it made no sense for one to be frobable and not the other! The only way I see to make this more consistent is to make all the small candles and oil lamps not frobable at all and only exstinguishable by Blow, but this would be a huge change compared to the original game and I can't really see the majority of players liking this after the backlash I got when I asked to frob extinguish oil lamps in the first place...

Edited by wesp5
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Let me say I appreciate what you did and what you do. You weren't satisfied with something, you put up good fights, you came up with ideas and solutions, and you shared the results. You didn't give up. Thanks for that.

Problems can be approached in different ways. Yesterday there was one solution and today there are two alternatives. Having seen what's going on behind curtains, I regard the blow as the more elegant and less intrusive solution. At this point I can only wish some authors would support our tools by course correcting some decisions. I think I now understand the implications and I also think I figured out an an elegant way out. Solutions will be presented privately in due time.

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22 minutes ago, snatcher said:

At this point I can only wish some authors would support our tools by course correcting some decisions. I think I now understand the implications and I also think I figured out an an elegant way out. Solutions will be presented privately in due time.

Does this mean you have another idea you are working on to fix these problems? Because I doubt that many mission authors even care about the things we are discussing here, just look at the low participation in this thread. At least I just fixed the oil lamps in "A New Job", which weird enough were defined as being lit only to be extinguished in the map file which confuses my patch. I think I will check out all the missions if there are others with the same issue and fix them.

Edited by wesp5
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On 8/13/2022 at 4:47 PM, wesp5 said:

But speaking of improving things, I'm pretty satisfied with the static lights, but there is a bit of frob-on-frob-off issue if you exstinguish a moveable candle with the use key. Can you or Obsttorte please take a look if I did something wrong in the attached scripts?

Any portable holder + candle.

TDM:

  • You can frob the candle or the holder.
  • If you frob the candle, it switches to the holder and you grab the duo.
  • If you frob the holder, you grab the duo.
  • If you use the item while holding it, and if the candle is ignited, it gets extinguished.
  • If you drop the item, we go to the beginning.

Patch:

  • You can frob the candle or the holder.
  • If you frob the candle, and if the candle is ignited, it gets extinguished, and the candle becomes non frobable. You can grab and drop the duo by frobbing the holder.
  • If you frob the holder, and use the item while holding it, and if the candle is ignited, it gets extinguished. When you drop the item, only the candle is frobable. If you frob the candle, the candle becomes non frobable and the holder becomes frobable. If you frob the holder, you grab the duo.
  • Here is the problem: If you frob the candle, and if the candle is ignited, it gets extinguished, and the candle becomes non frobable. If, at this moment, you grab the the holder and use the item, the holder becomes non frobable, meaning you cannot grab either the candle or the holder anymore.

Considering the rules introduced, this is a quiet a puzzle!

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