Easy Radiant Question

[Dram]

Thanks for the info btw.

 

Some of us use the crack so as not have to install (fucking) steam. I hate it, and i will ot endorse it. That sorta sums it up i guess. You don't HAVE to of course, but I want to. Again, i hate steam

[Maximius]

No problem. I hate pushy software too, Im the kind of guy who fills out registrations and poll forms on software with insane bogus personal data just to (hopefully) drive someone nuts somewhere. Ive been a 74 year old video gaming nuclear engineer from Borneo, for example.

 

 

Has anyone ever tried to flesh out an online thief game, not Thievery UT but a multiplayer Thief? What about a game where teams of online thieves compete versus one another and AI guards to break into a castle and rob the vault? Could be fun, racing to break in, dodging the fuzz, whacking opposing teams to slow them down or eliminate them completely. Which doesnt mean you win, cause then the guards can concentrate on you. Any ideas?

[Dram]

brilliant, what game to use though ?

[obscurus]

Has anyone ever tried to flesh out an online thief game, not Thievery UT but a multiplayer Thief? What about a game where teams of online thieves compete versus one another and AI guards to break into a castle and rob the vault? Could be fun, racing to break in, dodging the fuzz, whacking opposing teams to slow them down or eliminate them completely. Which doesnt mean you win, cause then the guards can concentrate on you. Any ideas?

Isn't that what Nightblade is pretty much supposed to be? It would be nice to see a bit of action on that project, it seems to be stagnating at the moment. At least the website hasn't been updated in months... But yeah, that sounds like a fun game Maximius, and if Nightblade doesn't do it out of the box, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to create a new game type and some new maps (if and when it is released)...

 

I believe some of the Dark Mod team are/have been involved with Nightblade, any of you have any news/rumors on that project?

 

I know the Dark Mod is concentrating on SP only, which is good because not enough people make singleplayer games anymore, but if someone wants to add multiplayer functionality to the Dark Mod via a mod of the mod, I'm sure no one here would complain...

[Maximius]

brilliant, what game to use though ?

Now that you (and obscurus, drat him) mention it, DarkMod would seem the perfect candidate for such a mod of a mod. Lets see:

 

Two teams, maybe more, of like 2 or 3 thieves each.

 

Different kinds of thief sub-classes, taken from the old games and FMs.

 

Assassins, strong, deadly, fast, good for guarding teams back and striking out at other teams, not the best at safecracking or spotting traps, highest level of health, sets booby traps, best shots with bow/arrow,maybe give them a garrote to lasso guards from on high?

 

Boxmen, the safecracker, opens doors really fast, spots traps and alarms, can maybe even disable some mechanical devices to turn off lights or trash mechs w/o using weapons. (Imagine a boxman sneaking up behind a Tank-Bot and gently sliding a lockpick into a small hole and Pfzzzt! Something besides hitting the damn grate with a water-arrow, THAT was a little weak frankly.) Boxmen are a little slower than other thieves, all that equiptment, but doughty in a fight

 

Thieves, all around thief ala Garrett, a nice "filler outer" class for a team, not as deadly as assassin but still powerful, not as skilled as the boxman but still capable of doing his jobs, a good choice for maps that dont have super tough enemies or super tough safes/vaults/security systems. If the climbing gloves were ever brought into the mod, maybe that would be this classes claim to fame. Assassins and boxmen are too big to climb with gloves, but rope arrows/grappling hooks would be open to all.

 

And one possible addition:

 

Thief-sorcerer:physically weakest of the four classes, cannot use climbing gloves, runs fast enough but useless in a melee, however can use a number of spells, maybe healing, blinding, sleep, wind (to extinguish flames), turn undead, fire ball, reveal traps, make popcorn, whatever. Problem is, you can only pick a limited number of spells to study before the mission and when you use a spell it takes a bit of time before you can use it again. Choose wisely. (And maybe this class would get a familiar, Ive been dreaming of giving the Thief a rat companion that he is magically bonded with and making maps where you have to play both characters to complete)

 

All the classes can ultimately do what the others do, so you may be able to finish a map full of enemies with a boxman and a sorcerer if you are really careful but it would be tough. The sorcerer still carries lockpicks, but he is slow with them. An assassin can still detect a trap, but it takes a lot longer and he misses some occasionally.

 

Now as to the AI. The undead and monsters are one thing, but guards are a different story. When a guard is alerted by one team, and then sounds an alarm, ALL teams are in hot water. The security goes nutz and stays at alert the rest of the game. No easy KOs with these guys, and a fight is a bad idea unless you have at least one assassin to back you up with muscle.

 

So its in everyone's best interest to avoid alerting the guards. If you knock one out, hide the body well, and know that eventually the guard will be missed anyway so your time is limited now. (Course, the other team doesnt know that, do they?) Best to avoid KOs and fights if possible, or save them until absolutely necessary.

 

This could lead to some fun little kinks in gameplay. Say for instance your team is falling behind, you've lost your team mates, you know that your opposing team has probably reached the vault or treasure room ahead of you and is working on the lock right now. So what can you do? Well, its really risky, cause you could get nailed too, but you could alert a guard to your presence. Let him chase you past the other team at work, a priority list in the AIs would make the guard stop and attack/raise hell with the team about to hit the loot. Or just alert him and let the general alarm make it hell for the opposing team to get out. Cause if they all get nailed, you can flash bulb the guards, grab the sack, and make it out the window yourself.

 

Or a team could go "all assassin", let the opposing team do the hard work, then whack em as they leave.

 

Ok, thats enough daydreaming, what do youse all think?

 

Oo, nightblade looks really cool, what is the status of this little gem?

Edited June 23, 2005 by Maximius

[Maximius]

Sorry, this is completely unrelated to DarkMod or anything but HOLY CRAPCAKES FROM HELL!!!!!!!

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/kenya_leopard_d...HBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

 

 

I bet his grandkids will +move+ the next time he tells them to get to bed!

[obscurus]

Some excellent ideas Maximius, I think there is a lot of good stuff in there...

 

The Dark Mod would certainly look very nice for this kind of thing, but I don't think that Doom 3's multiplayer code would be up to it (although Quake 4 might do the job nicely - I wonder if the Dark Mod would work with Q4 with a little tweaking?)....

 

The UT2K4/Nightblade project would be the easiest project to do this, since most of those gameplay elements are already there or planned for in NB... UT2k4 is good because it has excellent multiplayer code, excellent bot AI, and a very easy to use scripting system for making mods etc... While D3 looks graphically better than UT2K4 for a dark Thief style game, Unreal does multiplayer much better than most other engines out there, IMO. I'd definately have a look at the Nightblade forums, and post your ideas there as well.

 

Man that was one brave grandfather... me personally, I would have used the Machete... there isn't much a leapard could do about that if you had your wits about you

[Drakon]

I'd say go classless... If someone happens to be a good shot w/bow and clever trapsetter, let them be the team's assassin. If someone is good a picking locks (if it took any skill, that is), they'll be the lockpicker.

 

But there'd have to be some way of preventing it from being "deathmatch in darkness w/ AI annoyances". Why bother do the hard stuff when you can simply kill the other team once they've done the work? While it'd be clever and such, it would really piss the other team off and not just a "Shoot, I lost" way. Just look how mad people get when someone dies in their own base in TFC, resulting in someone else capping the flag even though they brought it all the way back from the enemy base.

 

Conflicts arise when a team of people playing to have fun (the people doing the heist) go against a team of people trying only to win. (The people killing the people who did the heist) How fun is it to sit around a half hour just to kill everyone in 2 minutes? (Well, in some situations, it IS I suppose... in rare occassions...)

 

You would also have to prevent the AI from being slaughtered. AI vs. 1 thief SHOULD be an AI win (if the thief is unprepared or something...). AI vs 4 thieves w/ bows; The AI dies, easily. No need for stealth when you can kill anything you meet.

[Maximius]

I'd say go classless... If someone happens to be a good shot w/bow and clever trapsetter, let them be the team's assassin. If someone is good a picking locks (if it took any skill, that is), they'll be the lockpicker.

Ok, let me respond to your points about "deathmatch in darkness" first. Why no deathmatch? For one, BOTH human teams can lose this game. If the AIs catch on to one group, they go nuts. That impacts your team as well, and I would want that impact to really count.

 

If the guards catch on, there is no relaxation period to wait for like we did in Thief hiding in the rafters. When the alarm sounds, formerly stationary and lone partrolling guards form pre-assigned squads and begin to tear shit apart. Pre-assigned lone guards stay on lone patrols but sneak and hunt. Lamps come out, torches relit. So if one team attacks the other right away, chances are no one will walk out of the place.

 

So it behooves both teams to play it quiet, real quiet, sneak to the target, try to get it quietly if possible, if not grab, run, and start unslinging arms. Because neither of you want to get the AI involved. Its still possible to finish the game when the alarm is sounded, as long as a man is standing and can get the loot bag out the escape window, or nail the target for assassination, or whatever, that team scores the win.

 

 

That being said, sometimes the opportunity to kill the other team and get away with it will arise. A good team might lay an ambush at the end of a map if the other team grabs the loot first, but a good opposing team will know that since they have not seen a hair of the other team, there is probably an ambush waiting. And nothing stops the AI from busting in on a brawl two feet from the exit and killing everyone, so it had best be a fast ambush.

 

Im thinking of making it more like 1 AI could wipe out 2 thieves easily, three if given half a chance, and four if they are really inept. So all four would pretty much have to engage a guard if he stumbled on them, do it FAST, QUIET, and then work with the knowledge that he will be missed in about 15 minutes. When a guard is missing, you guessed it, alarms. None of that Thief 1/2/3 baloney, these are real guards who would be executed if they left their posts. They dont go away w/o reasons, and never for very long.

 

Now, the reason I proposed classes is because some maps may require the skills of a specialist. Taking a boxman into a bank, good idea. Taking a sorcerer into a crypt, good idea. If its a middle of the road map, maybe a race to grab the loot, go thief. If its an assassination.... But it could be done with a generic thief character, with different equiptment for different maps. I just like the idea of differing skills and limitations/advantages, however its arrived at.

 

Obscurus, whats wrong with the D3 multiplayer code? Not good enough?

[obscurus]

Obscurus, whats wrong with the D3 multiplayer code? Not good enough?

It is my understanding that it was never originally designed for more than four players (I think it has now been bumped up to 8, but still that is not many), as Doom 3 was intended to be a primarily single player game, and the multiplayer side of it is fairly rudimentary. Quake 4 is the Doom 3 engine with rewritten multiplayer code, allowing for large multiplayer deathmatches etc. Fear will be released soon, that is another Doom 3 game, I dunno what sort of multiplayer it offers, and whether it would be worth modding to what you want...

 

As far as I know, D3 would just take a lot of coding to get a decent multiplayer experience out of it, whereas it is a relatively trivial task to do what you are suggesting with UT2K4 + Nightblade. It should in theory be possible to port the Dark Mod to Quake 4 and add multiplayer stuff with little difficulty (but I am a mapper, not a programmer, so I could be wrong).

 

If you look at the Nightblade team, going by their names, it would appear that many of them are working on Nightblade and Dark Mod simultaneously, so I suspect they have enough on their plate without coding extra stuff for TDM...

 

I think we must all just wait patiently for Nightblade to be released, and see what it offers... In the meantime, Thievery UT is the closest thing available to what you are talking about...

[Maximius]

Thievery UT is the closest thing available to what you are talking about...

 

 

Blecch! Im done with shooters, unless they are really, really good. No more Pac-Man with plasma rifles.

 

 

Im suprised D3s multiplayer is so weak, I figured it would be hardcore. Hmph. Although I think 8 total players would be the maximum anyway, it would get too crowded. Oh well, I just wait patiently for the next Thief style game to come out.

 

And gnaw my fingers.....

Edited June 24, 2005 by Maximius

[obscurus]

There's a game called Stolen available, but unfortunately it has had awful reviews.. it is a bit like thief, but with a female cat burgler character in modern setting. Crap game though by all accounts, they really bungled it... I wish more everyday shooters would incorporate more realistic stealth elements... I get so sick of shooting everything in FPSs..

 

I think Id deliberately left good multiplayer out of D3 as they knew it was going to be in Quake 4 - why sell one game when you can sell two I might be underestimating D3s multiplayer capabilities a bit, but from what I've heard, it will take a lot of coding to get anything more than run of the mill deathmatch and CTF. It could be that after TDM is released, the next version adds stuff along the lines of Thievery etc.

[Dram]

...adds stuff along the lines of Thievery etc.

Man, if it were to turn out like Thievery (the multiplayer) I would kill someone. Thievery SUCKS if you play with DM Thieves. It fucking gives me the shits as they run around as they would in Splinter Cell. Man, I had to modify sooooooooooooooo many things to get that game playable. Now you light up shitloads and the lockpicking is gui blah blah blah... Anyway, that game was very unbalanced, it was like the guards were just "obstacles" which in Thief 1/2 they were not. If you play Thievery online today, you will find NO Thief 1/2 players, in fact, for some fucked up reason they hate Thief. I mean, there they are, playing Thievery, a mod developed from Thief, and when I ask them "who here plays or likes Thief?" the answer I get is "man, you should'nt ask that question around here much, you'll get no responses". Man oh man... Anyway, that's just my rants.

 

Point is, I would not want multiplayer in TDM unless it was VERY HARD for a single thief to win against 1 or 2 guards. The reason: I do not want to attract the DM Thieves here, that's the last thing I would want, to go and play TDM online as a guard, doing my daily patrol, when arrows fly in like shit. I would only ever play TDM online if there was NO KILLS ALLOWED. That's just me of course.

 

Anyway, back to the topic...

[Maximius]

Thats so weird, it would be one thing if they said "Nah, too slow, not our cup of tea." or something like that but to actually get pissy? I think some cyber communities are a little too insular, a little too caught up in their little worlds.

 

I agree with your points about unbalance ruining a game. Tom Clancys games were all like that for me, the one or two I played anyway. Different setting, but same problem. I would simply set up my teams with max armor, scoped rifles, and clean out room after room. It was boring as hell.

 

I understand some online shooters are and should be shoot em ups, hey they can be a lot of fun, long as you are playing humans that can really fight back. But even not being an industry analyst, I get the feeling that games are all being pulled into the black hole of consolization. If I am correct when I think that more and more games are only coming out of big publishing houses that can A. afford to pay the people the money to make a game thats probably going to flop and B. demand generic, "across the board" styles of games that appeal to the hordes of console owners, the tendency is to make even PC games consolized. (I need not mention any examples on this list.)

 

Thats just the beginning of the problem. Remember, the gamers that are coming after us have no real standards for a good game left anymore. They are going to think HALO2 is the be all and end all, until HALO3. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, it is communities like this one that are going to SAVE real video gaming, and continue to move the artform forward.

 

Thats why I was so excited with D3. Not the game, which got real dull real fast, but the incredibly immersive quality of the textures and special effects. To my eyes, the games crossed a threshold with D3 in terms of cinemagraphic realism. You could, with time, make convincing movies with this engine, even RL stuff. In the hands of the loving community, I think some of the best games we have ever played lay right around the corner.

[Dram]

it is communities like this one that are going to SAVE real video gaming, and continue to move the artform forward.

I cannot agree more. It seems Thief has brought out a certain need from games for us veteran thief players, that no rocket launcher can douse. Personally, since playing Thief 1 and 2, I compare all new games to the level of intuitivity of Thief. I love Thief and always will. I hope there is a Thief 4, but not like T:DS but more like the lovable Thief 1/2. I hope another company like looking glass appears, or it seems we may be stuck with braindead games.

 

EDIT: oh and yeah, I thought it was quite sad that they hated Thief. It's the kind of "what-i-can't-see-does'nt-exist" type attitude, though they have seen it and are living in denial. Anyways...

Edited June 24, 2005 by Dram

[Fingernail]

We could try multiplayer LATER; indeed, I gather it's rare to have a game of Thievery with more than 8 human players anyway these days.

[Drakon]

I think Thief, Baldur's Gate, Half-Life 1, and some Quake has my brain locked into a state that leaves me dissatisfied with so many games... Red Faction, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, Diablo II, Guild Wars, Dungeon Siege, Thief III, Doom III...

 

They just weren't FUN. How can I put Quake I above Doom III in my "Favorite games" list? There were as many polygons in a level of Quake 1 to make up the leg of a creature in Doom III. I've got the feeling that I like the simplicity of some games. My imagination can fill in so many gaps, and I like the way I fill in the gaps better than the way fancy graphics do.

 

Games have been advancing in graphics and technology, but I don't see any big advances in making a game a good game.

Edited June 24, 2005 by Drakon

[Maximius]

Thief 1/2 has become my standard too, with the exception of Ground Control and Homeworld, ( I know, Sierra) but they are mooch-o immersive. But they are such different genres anyway. For FPS, its Thief.

 

Drakon, your list is identical to my own. I just replayed Red Fracture for the cool weapons, the only really good part of the game. The AI layouts were stinky, it was like they had all been waiting for you to arrive the entire game. BG1 was pretty fun, NWN was dull,the Planescape mod thingy was pretty bland too. And I though all the Diablos were crappy.

 

With DarkMod, I want to make scenes that will haunt the player (mongst other things). Not necessarily gory, but dark, spooky, ALIEN shit that makes you forget you are sitting at your desk. Not space alien, but weird.

 

Id like to develop recurring characters, in different FMs you meet them as opponents, allies, and sometimes even just cameos.

 

I wrote something about this at TTLG. A vampire character, one that works with, against, and sometimes along the Thief. Think of the immersion, if you play an FM against a powerful undead badass, the battle is unresolved, then two, three FMs later you bump into him/her/it again, just for a brief moment on the rooftops. The vampire greets you with a laugh and reminds you of some petty detail from the last mission, then is gone for three more FMs.

 

Course, it doesnt have to be an undead thing, a Detective from the Hammerlikes, sometimes after the Thief, sometimes calling for assistance.

Little details can be used to create a web of memories around a character that build depth. You help the Detective out one night, save his ass, and ten FMs later he slips you a lockpick set while you sit in the pen. Add a few character models, a few good scripted scenes (D3s cutscenes are pretty damn cool), and you have yourself a little character development, which pays off big time. That being said, I dont want tons of flash, simple, dark, direct scenes with compelling dialog (hopefully). If I can get a little Lovecraft feel in my FMs, mmm, thats good stuff. Come to think of it, those ancient statues in Thief 1/2, the figure with the squid head, is none other than Cthulu. Hai, Cthulu!!! Hai Yog-Shothoth!!!

 

If someone wanted to look into such a project Fingernail after a well deserved rest, they would have my eternal gratitude for one. I dont think the fact the NB exists, bless its soul, should stop anyone from making yet another game. Make seventeen if we can, cause no one else is making good games anymore.

Edited June 25, 2005 by Maximius

[Springheel]

Little details can be used to create a web of memories around a character that build depth. You help the Detective out one night, save his ass, and ten FMs later he slips you a lockpick set while you sit in the pen. Add a few character models, a few good scripted scenes (D3s cutscenes are pretty damn cool), and you have yourself a little character development, which pays off big time.

 

That works in a campaign, but not a series of unconnected FMs. There's no way to know what order the player is going through them, or to stop the player from killing the Detective in one mission only to have him slip you lockpicks in the next.

[Drakon]

I'm thinking of making a short campaign... Gandalf warned us not to meddle in the affairs of wizards. Garrett, apparently, never read The Lord of the Rings.

 

Will we be able to connect our own missions in any way? Levels could be travelled foward or backward in D3, so I'm guessing so...

[Fingernail]

Indeed you can do this.

[sparhawk]

Yeah. BUt we have to find a way to transfer the data between missions.

[Fingernail]

Well D3 transfers ammo, so it must be in there somewhere.

[Maximius]

That works in a campaign, but not a series of unconnected FMs. There's no way to know what order the player is going through them, or to stop the player from killing the Detective in one mission only to have him slip you lockpicks in the next.

Hmm, thats true. It looked good on paper though! What about introducing characters that the Thief only sees, and interacts with at most indirectly, so that there is no "crossed" storylines to worry about? Say the Thief sees the Detective at work in a cutscene or where the Thief can only watch and hear the Detective, not hurt, or address, etc.

 

Then the Detective appears in another FM, same kind of role, again untouchable by the Thief, who only sees and notes this recurring figure. Though that would be a boring detective character, it would be better to have a campaign to work up the character development for someone so obviously in conflict (and possible contact) with the Thief. Maybe it would work for a high ranking royal or religious leader, someone the Thief may be indirectly involved with through the storyline, but who he never actually meets or contacts. He just sees them once in a while to support the storyline.

[sparhawk]

Cutsences and anything that is done over more than one FM is not part of the mod, as we can not know what a FM author chooses to do.