[Resolved] Allow mantling while carrying a body

[kingsal]

@STiFUJust a heads up if we do change the rope climbing rules it will break Cauldron until I can fix it. This would require redesigning a good chunk of the mission and I don't plan on doing that any time soon. 

[Daft Mugi]

 

[STiFU]

29 minutes ago, kingsal said:

@STiFUJust a heads up if we do change the rope climbing rules it will break Cauldron until I can fix it. This would require redesigning a good chunk of the mission and I don't plan on doing that any time soon. 

I think we should leave shouldering while climbing as is to avoid breaking anything, but we should probably fix what @peter_spy just discovered. Maybe disallow dropping bodies while attached to climbable.

Anyway, I guess we are all on the same page regarding shouldered mantling: Waist-high only. @stgatilov noted on the bugtracker that the current implementation doesn't tie in well with the existing mantling conditions. So, my suggestion would be, once 2.11 is out the door, we'll fix that and whip out a dev release. Sounds good?

[Daft Mugi]

7 minutes ago, STiFU said:

I think we should leave shouldering while climbing as is to avoid breaking anything, but we should probably fix what @peter_spy just discovered. Maybe disallow dropping bodies while attached to climbable.

For dropping a body while climbing, wouldn't the character just dip their shoulder to let the body slide off onto the ground? Seems plausible to me and should stay. Why make it more cumbersome?

7 minutes ago, STiFU said:

Anyway, I guess we are all on the same page regarding shouldered mantling: Waist-high only. @stgatilov noted on the bugtracker that the current implementation doesn't tie in well with the existing mantling conditions. So, my suggestion would be, once 2.11 is out the door, we'll fix that and whip out a dev release. Sounds good?

I've tried to address that code feedback in the newest version of that patch. I'll need a new code review.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Daft Mugi

[peter_spy]

In order not to complicate things, and to keep the world rules fairly easy to grasp, I guess the body shouldn't take much more damage than player's fall damage? At least as a player, I'd expect something like that. And also to prevent players from accidentally killing someone, reloading a save is never fun.

Edited January 30, 2023 by peter_spy

[Daft Mugi]

1 minute ago, peter_spy said:

In order not to complicate things, and to keep the world rules fairly easy to grasp, I guess the body shouldn't take much more damage than player's fall damage? At least as a player, I'd expect something like that.

I think I misunderstood. Are you saying that dropping a body on a rope is ok, but the issue is that an unconscious body will take massive damage?

Yeah, a difference in damage is not good.

[peter_spy]

Personally I'd rather not have it, but there are missions which already depend on that, so my opinion is irrelevant. The most important thing here is to see whether the falling damage can be reduced to something players would expect and won't feel punished by.

[peter_spy]

There are other complications though. How much fall damage should player take, if they decide to jump off a rope with the body? Should the player let go of the body or not? Also, right now it's much harder to jump off the rope with the body than without it. Why? And last but not least, how would you teach players these things, possibly without much hand-holding and text prompts explaining the rules?

I guess I'm with @STiFUon this one, if you restrict dropping the body, you'll save yourself (and mappers) a lot of headaches. But even that doesn't solve all the problems,

I know I'm in the minority in these forums, but as a player, I really appreciate the beauty and efficiency in simplicity of the design. Not overthinking everything and adding more and more rules for the sake of realism (or anything else).

Edited January 30, 2023 by peter_spy

[Epifire]

1 hour ago, kingsal said:

As for my own opinion on mantling with a body. Im for it. However, I worry that this could have the opposite effect and break some missions where the author anticipated the player not being able to mantle with a body.

Risky waters changing mantle rules, but.. im not against the effort.

I could see allowing waist high mantles with a body, but not full on overhead grabs and mantles.

Yeah agreed. I'd really only make a concession for knee high (short objects) but even then, this should be executed very cautiously.

[AluminumHaste]

4 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Oh my, this really needs addressing. Not only can you climb a rope with a body, you can also drop it while on rope, and if it's an unconscious AI, it will take absolutely massive damage. This is dropped from approx. 192 uu:

No that doesn't need addressing, don't drop bodies for more than like 10 feet or they get hurt. Duh.

[ChronA]

Hm. If encumbered rope climbing is not only in the game already but is used in some popular FMs, I may have to change my opinion. It doesn't make any sense for the player character to be able to climb around on a rope with a body slung on his shoulder, but not be able to jump or mantle at all while under the same burden. That's just silly.

The rarity argument cuts both ways. A situation that hardly ever comes into play is unlikely to break many missions.

[Daft Mugi]

I'm going to post a series of screenshots to illustrate the current state of the work-in-progress patch.
I hope the screenshots help to get an idea of the patch better than numbers.

First example, shouldering Bellero in Volta 2.

@kingsal Does this look ok? Does it break your intended design?

[Daft Mugi]

Last example (for now), shouldering Lily in The Painter's Wife.

Here, the player can shoulder mantle onto the table, but the player cannot shoulder mantle into the vent.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Daft Mugi

[kingsal]

13 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

I'm going to post a series of screenshots to illustrate the current state of the work-in-progress patch.
I hope the screenshots help to get an idea of the patch better than numbers.

First example, shouldering Bellero in Volta 2.

@kingsal Does this look ok? Does it break your intended design?

Thanks Yeah that should be fine!

I think you could make the shoulder mantle even higher honestly. Since the current frustration from players would be that they have to put the body down on the red ledge, climb up, and pick it back up again. I don;t see why we can't go at least to player height. Hard to tell how high that is from the screenshot though.

Anything overhead the player would be a no go still. Testing will tell if this makes sense or not  

Edited January 31, 2023 by kingsal

[kingsal]

@Daft MugiAlso just to be clear.  Not being able to carry bodies up ropes and vines (ladders) will break the mission design 

Being able to mantle shorter walls and obstacles in cauldron  would actually be a benefit to the design there

 

[Daft Mugi]

1 hour ago, kingsal said:

I think you could make the shoulder mantle even hiring honestly. Since the current frustration from players would be that have to put the body down on above the red ledge, climb up, and pick it back up again.

Good point! I just did a test, and I found when I drop Bellero, mantle, crouch, and (lean) frob Bellero, the longest frobbable distance seemed to be around 38 units. So, it's good that 41 units at least covers that scenario.

1 hour ago, kingsal said:

Hard to tell how high that is from the screenshot though.

Attached screenshot in third person.

1 hour ago, kingsal said:

Not being able to carry bodies up ropes and vines (ladders) will break the mission design 

I agree. I'm for keeping climbing while shouldering a body.

1 hour ago, kingsal said:

Being able to mantle shorter walls and obstacles in cauldron  would actually be a benefit to the design there

It sure does! Less frustration, and more fun!

Edited January 31, 2023 by Daft Mugi

[peter_spy]

6 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

No that doesn't need addressing, don't drop bodies for more than like 10 feet or they get hurt. Duh.

Yup. Player jumping off a rope at 192 uu gets 0 to 5 damage, unconscious AI falls down and gets squished by a planet. Nothing to see here folks, just another day in the wacky TDMLand

[STiFU]

3 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

Good point! I just did a test, and I found when I drop Bellero, mantle, crouch, and (lean) frob Bellero, the longest frobbable distance seemed to be around 38 units. So, it's good that 41 units at least covers that scenario.

Attached screenshot in third person.

I agree. I'm for keeping climbing while shouldering a body.

It sure does! Less frustration, and more fun!

I would say, just have the max height configurable via cvar, so we can fine-tune it later. And maybe add a shouldered mantling animation time multiplier cvar that linearily slows down mantling while shouldering to simulate encumbrance. 

[datiswous]

5 hours ago, kingsal said:

Not being able to carry bodies up ropes and vines (ladders) will break the mission design 

What missions are designed like that? It makes no sense.

[datiswous]

12 hours ago, peter_spy said:

I guess the body shouldn't take much more damage than player's fall damage?

Logically it should take more damage, because when you fall, you land on your feet. A falling body does not.

[wesp5]

4 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Yup. Player jumping off a rope at 192 uu gets 0 to 5 damage, unconscious AI falls down and gets squished by a planet.

I don't know how much 192 uu is in meter, but if you jump of a rope and land on your feet it certainly does less damage than dropping an unconcious body which migh fall down head first.

Edited January 31, 2023 by wesp5

[datiswous]

13 hours ago, kingsal said:

I would suggest we don't change that rule as it could effect this mission, PD3 and who knows how many others

An alternative is to change the rule but disable the rule for specified missions. 

[peter_spy]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

I don't know how much 192 uu is in meter, but if you jump of a rope and land on your feet it certainly does less damage than dropping a unconcious body which migh fall down head first.

Check the actual damage amount in the screenshot. It's almost 40 000.

Edit: also, bodies dropped from that height fall flat. I haven't tried the max possible height yet, maybe the ragdoll does kick in after a certain point. Perhaps the whole thing should have a separate thread

Edited January 31, 2023 by peter_spy

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

Check the actual damage amount in the screenshot. It's almost 40 000.

Well, that looks like a bug then :)! BTW, how much health does the player have? How much have typical NPCs?

Edited January 31, 2023 by wesp5

[chakkman]

Hmm... kinda bad that there was an omission to prevent the player from carrying a body up ladders and ropes. That would be a critical thing for me to fix, but, if there's already missions built around that "exploit"...

Guess it doesn't even matter anymore then if the player can mantle everywhere with the body on his shoulder or not. I mean, what's more unrealistic than being able to carry 100 kilo plus bodies up ropes? Not even Schwarzenegger can do that.

Edited January 31, 2023 by chakkman