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RPS Article on Thief genre from perspective of original TTLG dev


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10 hours ago, ChronA said:

Good lists you guys, and a good discussion. 🙂

@chakkman a less pessimistic way of looking at things might be gaming as a whole has grown and democratized massively since the 90s, rather than the niche for our preferred kind of game is shrinking. The market for immersive sims and similarly complex experiences is actually bigger than it's ever been, but it's diversified into what's now viewed as a bunch of different genres within a massively expanded universe of gaming.

The games market in general has grown exponentially. Most play action games or "RPG's" like Assassins Creed though, so, I'm very doubtful that the percentual amount of people playing "immersive sims" (I don't like that genre designation at all, it says nothing about the kind of game really) is higher than it used to be. Steamspy for Deathloop (which is probably the best to compare as it wasn't sold for peanuts yet) says 500.000 to 1.000.000 owners, which sounds high, but, if you compare it to the really popular games, it's a fraction. IIRC, Dishonored 2 was lower at that point, which makes me think that Deathloop is more popular because it's a more modern setting with guns in it.

By the way, you may know the game Myst. It used to be the most popular game world wide. Could you imagine that game being the most popular these days? :) The market has changed, people have changed. To be fair though, one has to say that video games used to be something for nerds, while the market has vastly opened up, of course, with especially console gamers making a big part of the market nowadays.

Edited by chakkman
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IMO Deathloop won people with the style and quasi-comedic delivery, which I also liked. But while im-sims might look like they've regained popularity, it's not that many people finish these games (although that seems to apply to all games in general). For example, first Dishonored vs Deathloop on Steam:

Clipboard01.thumb.jpg.00b0f9a3e92abd2a4a360fdc283fba79.jpg

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44 minutes ago, chakkman said:

Steamspy for Deathloop (which is probably the best to compare as it wasn't sold for peanuts yet) says 500.000 to 1.000.000 owners, which sounds high, but, if you compare it to the really popular games, it's a fraction.

That is high.

The original Deus Ex only moved 1,000,000 units globally between 2000 and 2009 (via some quick Wikipedia searching), and Thief TDP reportedly only managed to sell about half that globally before LGS shuttered. Deathloop, on Steam alone, is doing numbers that would make those titans of the genre green with envy (to say nothing of console sales, which should not be left out). And last I checked, Deathloop was considered a lesser offering from Arkane.

It's a mistake to believe that because the market for games as a whole has grown exponentially, the market for every sub-genre must grow proportionately to the whole.

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Well, that was exactly what I said. :) IMO, the market for stealth games or "immersive sims" rather shrunk, proportionally. Most (all?) publishers won't even touch anything stealth or "immersive sim".

I think it's pretty distinctive what Ken Levine said, for example. That he feeds on crumbs falling off AAA titles' table.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/7/2023 at 9:26 PM, peter_spy said:

. I haven't played Subnautica yet, which is praised for its depiction of underwater adventures, but I still remember the dread of going further and further down the seabed. There is this section where you can fall off an edge, and into the deepest, darkest depths of the ocean a human can imagine. And when you do... The noises you hear while you are getting crushed by the increasing pressure – that memory still brings the shivers down my spine.

You should definitely give it a try. This was one of the games I was getting real nightmares that woke me up in the night at the time when I was playing it. Normally I don't have problems with horror in games, but as soon as it happens underwater where you don't know what's beneath you it makes by brain and body freeze. I wasn't able to finish the game in the end. But I likes how you could tune down the survival parts a bit to make it a little easier to play so you don't have to go fishing all the time.

And you don't even need to fall of the edge onto the dark abyss. It's enough to try to swim off the world map. I almost got a heart attack... I mean it.

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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One thing all those suvival games have in common is that they're too hectic. As if you'd have to work non stop to be fed, have a shelter, and if there were a hundred thousand threats everywhere all the time.

I don't know if there's any survival game which is a bit more relaxed, and not so much catered to nowadays' ADHD audience. Would like to try a game which is more that way.

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I honestly think without the survival aspect, you'll lose interrest even quicker. Survival games are all about overcoming harsh living conditions, whilst improving your gear, which gives you a sense of progress and accomplishment. Sure, exploration also plays a big part in Subnautica, but the exploration is hugely driven by the need for upgrades, and if the upgrades are simply not required without survival mechanics, the whole thing falls apart. I for one found the game incredibly boring, once I had unlocked all upgrades and discovered all relevant story bits. Still, the first 30 hours or so were very fun. If it just weren't riddled with bugs and had a few more quality of life features that makes everything less of a hassle....

Two of my favorite survival games, Stalker Anomaly and Green Hell, are very hard and unforgiving as well and that's exactly what makes them work so well. Once you understand their mechanics and know how to handle the different dangerous situations, incredible stories tend to unfold just by the game systems and you feel incredible for mastering these situations.

Here is a cool systems-based story I experienced in Green Hell:

Spoiler

Bitten by a big cat on exploration trip -> search the forest for honey and leafs to treat the wound -> too slow, wound infected -> search for maggots to treat infection -> getting very thristy -> No rain -> no clean water anywhere near -> With last remaining power, drink from a puddle -> got stomach infection -> search the forst for the right mushrooms to treat that -> finally found some and a coconut for water -> finally save!

 

One notable exception from this "the more hardcore the better"-rule of survival is Valheim. In that game, you are not punished for not eating or drinking properly. Instead, you get bonus stats by consuming dishes. So basically, you can just walk around in your base all day and build stuff or cut trees etc. without ever eating anything. That doesn't mean that this game is easy, 'though, as those consumables are definitely needed for the challenging combat during exploration and boss fights.

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@STiFUInteresting you mention S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Anomaly since it's one of my favourite survival games too. Not that I play many survival games anyway, I treat more like a death simulator. I've never gotten hugely far in the game and honestly it doesn't bother me, the sandbox way of playing it is what's appealing to me. Choosing a faction and some starting gear, enabling one-life mode, then going out into the world and seeing how far I can get before I die. Even short playthoughs are amazing given how freaky my deaths have been. Carefully navigating an abandoned village and some Snork comes out of nowhere...

Anyway, like some people here I think I'm also not really the target audience for most AAA titles anymore as well, although I will play the occasional big hitter like Cyberpunk 2077 but those are few and far in-between, and in Cyberpunk's case it's because of the FPS/RPG combination that appeals to me. My favourite sub-genre has always been immersive sims but they just don't sell well enough for the production costs that they seem to need, so I'm grateful things like Dishonored and the newer Deus Ex games exist even if in the latter's case it didn't get a proper game to end the storyline... yet anyway. I assuming Embracer Group didn't buy the devs and the IP for the lols.

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A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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I also like Stalker Anomaly. But mostly because of the atmosphere. Also they fixed a lot of bugs and crashes the original game had and with some well chosen mods the game gets even better. I'm really curious if the new stalker game, if it will ever be released, will come close to this atmospheric masterpiece.

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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On 2/8/2023 at 12:59 PM, peter_spy said:

IMO Deathloop won people with the style and quasi-comedic delivery, which I also liked. But while im-sims might look like they've regained popularity, it's not that many people finish these games (although that seems to apply to all games in general). For example, first Dishonored vs Deathloop on Steam:

Clipboard01.thumb.jpg.00b0f9a3e92abd2a4a360fdc283fba79.jpg

Could be due to the difference in gameplay. TBH, I found the rogue like (I think that's what it's called?) gameplay of Prey Mooncrash pretty frustrating and offputting. I loved the original game, but, Mooncrash didn't motivate me longer than half an hour.

BTW, a 50% rate of people who finished the game for Dishonored is amazing. Most games are much less frequently finished by the players. TBH, I think that rather comes down to the maturity of players though. The audience is different to other games.

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On 2/8/2023 at 1:58 AM, ChronA said:

Many kind-of-obscure modern games would have become absolute cultural touchstones if they'd been released in the late 90s like Thief. In fact to the kids of today and of the 2010s they may be exactly that.

On one hand this is probably true, but it's a different situation because in the 90s or early 00s they'd be revolutionary whereas today they're merely iterative. Doesn't mean they're bad, but I think it's reasonable to be disappointed that there's way less innovation in some segments (clarifying this because I know it's not everywhere) of the market now, with the exception of aspects like graphics which are rarely used to innovate the actual gameplay.  

I also think that despite the "if they were released in the 90s" claim probably being true, nothing as good as Deus Ex with its essence of 90s zeitgeist or Thief with its sprawling nonlinear levels and a unique and atmospheric world has been released.

I'm usually not complaining because I don't want to spend that much time playing videogames anyway, so my backlog of good and interesting games will always be big enough. But I do find it disappointing how few non-indie companies there are brave enough to try new things, and how often companies that try to iterate on unique and interesting games instead make them simpler and less unique. 

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20 hours ago, chakkman said:

Could be due to the difference in gameplay. TBH, I found the rogue like (I think that's what it's called?) gameplay of Prey Mooncrash pretty frustrating and offputting. I loved the original game, but, Mooncrash didn't motivate me longer than half an hour.

BTW, a 50% rate of people who finished the game for Dishonored is amazing. Most games are much less frequently finished by the players. TBH, I think that rather comes down to the maturity of players though. The audience is different to other games.

I don't think that finishing games means that players are more mature. Some people simply have other things to do. Same why people don't touch or finish certain books or movies. Especially not watching all seasons of some show.

In general, "completing" a game is a very relative thing if you measure it by the achievement system, since there's often some bonus or hidden content or some DLC without which you can't say you 100% completed the game.

So, for the most part "finishing" the main story concerns difficulty spikes that keeps certain people away from playing to the end rather than intentionally dropping the game without any reason. Therefore it's not necessarily the mature people that stay but simply the hardcore fans.

The fact that about 9% complete the game also doesn't necessarily mean that the game was hard or something. There's simply lots of people that play a game for 5 minutes to see if it works and since they don't get all the achievements - then the whole statistic tips in favor of those who only tried the game. Making the remaining 9% get smaller in percentage and the majority of people who tried the game closer to 100%.

TLDR there's lots of explanations.

There's a good article on the whole rationale behind all this completionism: https://medium.com/super-jump/how-to-measure-the-success-of-your-game-design-c2d51bc1da9a

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Completing a game demands from you, though. It requires to invest time and effort, and also dealing with things in the game which are not so much to your liking, or dealing with obvious flaws. Which the kids often don't do. That's also why many games have such an action packed first game hour these days: To prevent the kids from throwing the gamepad at the wall, because the game is so "booooring".

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