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[sparhawk]

In Firefox as well. I immediately noticed at least one of them when I first looked at the page.

[Fingernail]

erm, fishface, why is there a tab that is labelled 'pornographi...' on your browser?

 

[SneaksieDave]

The site in my version of IE (6.02) looks identical to the shot Oddity posted.

 

I'm a recent convert to Firefox. I feel foolish for waiting as long as I did, but I was using IE since Netscape faded in the mid nineties(?) simply because of the "easier to just use what's there" mindset. Microsoft depends on it.

 

For myself, I don't hate Microsoft to be rebellious; I hate them because they suck. Consistently, the products they release (and have the nerve to charge an arm and a leg for) are defective overpriced crap. I mean, have you (royal you) ever looked into the defects that exist in, for instance, Outlook Express? How about releasing an operating system where the simple act of searching is so flawed that it doesn't even work correctly, and then two service packs later, it is STILL not fixed, and the best they can offer is heavy registry hacking and/or third party utils? If you ever look deeply (well, you don't even have to go deep, really) into the issues surrounding Microsoft and the things they do and produce, you will be shocked at what you find. They truly are a shameful, even embarrassing, organization 90% of the time. We've all been blinded from the filet mignon that could be by being force-fed a shitty, greasy burger from McDonald's.

 

They honestly don't deserve our support anymore. If the world (and its gamers - our "little hobby" drives much of the world's computer technology) would simply move over to a good, open source OS like Linux and more (all) game devs would start to support it like they should be doing by now, we'd all really be much better off. The countless numbers of a community working on open source software will always have the ability to produce better things than a closed corporation for profit.

 

Funny thing is, what with monad and even simple command prompt functionality changes in XP and IE trying to be more like Firefox, etc., etc., isn't the reason obvious?

[FishFace]

erm, fishface, why is there a tab that is labelled 'pornographi...' on your browser?

 

Ever heard of the game notpron? Complete the positive levels and you will understand Alternatively, you could look at a spoiler site, I expect they will include the reason for it

[Fingernail]

Neat cover.

[FishFace]

I got it all thought out, ya see. The advantage being you have to spend a good few weeks before you get to level 81 on that thing, so until then, you'll never know

[modetwo]

You might have noticed a mysql error on this board earlier. The post_table was corrupt, so I had to fix it. Works good again now.

[Domarius]

For anyone who cares - the people who depend most on ALT tags are blind people. They use special browsers that uses a synthesised voice to read everything in the page, including what buttons are available etc - so if your buttons are images, they really need ALT tags if you expect a blind person to browse your site and avoid sueing you.

 

True thing - the company that made the sydney 2000 olympic games website was sucessfully sued by a blind guy - and when you read the article, it's really atrocious the way they treated this guy, basically giving him info over the phone expecting him to type strange acronyms to get to certain pages - strange acroyms that only made sense to the web developers.

 

Of course, unless you are a large scale website with a large target audience, this most likely doesn't concern you.

[FishFace]

Closer to home, though, is the preloading text thing. screenreaders are all very well, but you're not going to come across them very often. It still makes sense to use ALT tags, however, and not just to satisfy the validator.

[obscurus]

...They honestly don't deserve our support anymore.  If the world (and its gamers - our "little hobby" drives much of the world's computer technology) would simply move over to a good, open source OS like Linux and more (all) game devs would start to support it like they should be doing by now, we'd all really be much better off.  The countless numbers of a community working on open source software will always have the ability to produce better things than a closed corporation for profit.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At my place of work, the powers that be have seen fit to install Debian Linux on most of the workstation, with Windows XP on a select few. The hardware is identical, yet the Linux machines are consistently slower (Firefox takes five minutes to load on the Linux machines, versus about 2 seconds on the Windows machines), and the Linux machines are constantly locking up, freezing, running slow, and have no software that is half as good as anything you can get for Windows. In comparison, the Windows machines run flawlessly 99% of the time, run Microsoft Office, which in my experience is far more stable and user friendly than OpenOffice.org and all the other Office clones. Maybe Debian is just a bad distro (although I've tried a few on my machine at home and they were no better), but my general experience is that if you want quality, you have to pay for it. None of the open source 3D modelling packages come anywhere near to having the features and support that commercial ones do, and are usually bug ridden to the hilt, for example. There are a lot of open source 3D game engines out there, but in the end you guys chose a very expensive commercial 3D engine to make TDM for, and I am sure you did so because the open source engines just didn't stack up to Doom 3.

 

While open source is a great idea in theory, and there is some very good open source software out there, but most of it seems like it is built piecemeal by amateurs tinkering away in their spare time, and is of very poor quality (that has been my experience so far anyway).

 

I wont argue that Microsoft doesn't have a lot of flaws in their business model, and that they use their market dominance to get away with some very sloppy work at times, and I would certainly agree that they could do a lot of things better, but I haven't had any serious problems with Windows XP, or Office XP, apart from the outrageously large price tag. I do use Thunderbird and Mozzila however - two very adequate open source programs if I may say so, and certainly better than the Microsoft equivalents.

 

 

But I have had so many more bad experiences with Linux than I have with Windows that I wouldn't touch Linux with a forty foot pole if my employers didn't force me to.. Perhaps the IT department at work is just crap, and Linux really can be made to work well, but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet...

 

In terms of quality and stability, I think Apple/Mac wins hands down - OS X is incredibly stable, if only the interface wasn't so dumbed down and irritating, and there was more softtware for it...

[SneaksieDave]

If that's the case, the system administrators must be completely ignorant on getting/keeping such environments operating correctly, that's all.

[obscurus]

I wouldn't say the system administrators are the sharpest tools in the shed, but they don't have anything to do with the quality of the software available for Linux... Linux seems to be OK when you customise it for a specific purpose, like a dedicated server, but for running a general purpose desktop environment it seems woefully inadequate. I don't know if you use KDE, but it is horrible to use IMO - it is a pooly designed GUI strapped to a command line OS and it lets you know it frequently by loading programs so slowly you have time to make and drink a cup of coffee before it is up and running.

 

Maybe that is just due to incompetance on the System Administrator's part (I really don't know), but even if you can get it working smoothly, it doesn't change the fact that there is very little quality software that will run on Linux, or doesn't run better under Windows or Mac OS X. Otherwise I would jump on board Linux faster than you can say "free operating system", the price can't be beaten, and I do like the concept of not being dependant on Microsoft for every bloody thing...

[Ishtvan]

Funny, I remember when some games were sold for Linux, and the system requirements were much lower overall than the Windows counterpart. Also, show me a windows system that can run for months on end without developing a memory leak somewhere or crashing. There's also the matter of real security, vs security that imperfectly imitates Unix, and the policy of not patching a known security problem for 6 months and then acting all surprised when someone exploits it.

 

I do see your point about lack of quality commercial software in some areas like modeling, video editing, etc. Although, when it comes to simulation software, a lot of it is written for Unix systems first. Only the Linux version of Matlab can take advantage of a 64 bit processor, for example.

[sparhawk]

While open source is a great idea in theory, and there is some very good open source software out there, but most of it seems like it is built piecemeal by amateurs tinkering away in their spare time, and is of very poor quality (that has been my experience so far anyway). 

 

I don't think that you know much about Open Source. Most of the major packages are maintained by companies. Many of the developers are professional developers like myself who do the same for a living. The stereotype of "the amateur who presses a few buttons in his spare time" is completely inappropriate. We had the same tendency in the beginning of this project as well. Some people were of the opinion that we are jsut a abunch of amateurs and we can never reach teh quality a "professional" game developer can achieve. Quite on the contrary, most of the stuff that we have created by now is far superior than you can see in some commercial games already.

 

I don't know why you boxes run slower on Linux than on Windows, but I doubt that you did performance tests. Another problem is NOT the "amateur coding" it is the fact that many companies still don't hand out specs to allow proper development.

 

But I have had so many more bad experiences with Linux than I have with Windows that I wouldn't touch Linux with a forty foot pole if my employers didn't force me to..  Perhaps the IT department at work is just crap, and Linux really can be made to work well, but I haven't seen any evidence of that yet...

 

There are jobs which are done better with Linux and others with Windows. But in most commercial environments it was an advantage to use Linux for certain tasks. And for our project here, I would never even think of using a Windows box as our project server. It is simply to unsecure and unstable over a long time. With Linux I know that I can rely on it running day and night, without having to constantly worry, wether the server is down again, or was compromised.

 

In terms of quality and stability, I think Apple/Mac wins hands down - OS X is incredibly stable, if only the interface wasn't so dumbed down and irritating, and there was more softtware for it...

 

Now guess what OSX is ...

[sparhawk]

Linux seems to be OK when you customise it for a specific purpose, like a dedicated server, but for running a general purpose desktop environment it seems woefully inadequate.

 

I use Linux now for more than two years as my main general purpose desktop and so far I havent found it inadequate.

 

I don't know if you use KDE, but it is horrible to use IMO - it is a pooly designed GUI strapped to a command line OS and it lets you know it frequently by loading programs so slowly you have time to make and drink a cup of coffee before it is up and running.

 

That already shows that you know nothing about Linux and X. KDE is NOT a poorly designed GUI strapped on a command line. Quite on the contrary it is a very well designed windowing system that is not inherently tied to the operating system, which it shouldnt, as Windows is. Try to use Windows properly over a remote line where you can't use a mouse. With Unix you can do this easily. As long as you have a mouse available you can use Windows, but if you don't and you need to do something with your system, you will see that you can't properly work with it. And speaking of apps which are slow loading. The major reason why the apps in Windows SEEM to load faster is, because most of the stuff is preloaded. Starting Office is just as slow if you start it from scratch.

 

Maybe that is just due to incompetance on the System Administrator's part (I really don't know), but even if you can get it working smoothly, it doesn't change the fact that there is very little quality software that will run on Linux, or doesn't run better under Windows or Mac OS X.

 

That depends on what you need. Saying that there is very little quality software is wrong. All the apps that I need are of a very high production quality and are much moer stable than their Windows counterparts. As long as you just say "there is no or little quality software" for linux, without naming what you mean, I just consider you a troll.

[obscurus]

I use Linux now for more than two years as my main general purpose desktop and so far I havent found it inadequate.

That already shows that you know nothing about Linux and X. KDE is NOT a poorly designed GUI strapped on a command line. Quite on the contrary it is a very well designed windowing system that is not inherently tied to the operating system, which it shouldnt, as Windows is. Try to use Windows properly over a remote line where you can't use a mouse. With Unix you can do this easily. As long as you have a mouse available you can use Windows, but if you don't and you need to do something with your system, you will see that you can't properly work with it. And speaking of apps which are slow loading. The major reason why the apps in Windows SEEM to load faster is, because most of the stuff is preloaded. Starting Office is just as slow if you start it from scratch.

That depends on what you need. Saying that there is very little quality software is wrong. All the apps that I need are of a very high production quality and are much moer stable than their Windows counterparts. As long as you just say "there is no or little quality software" for linux, without naming what you mean, I just consider you a troll.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I honestly don't know a great deal about Linux, other than the fact that I use it throughout the take at work, and I have experimented with a few installations in the past. I am not I am not trying to come across as a Linux basher, I am just relaying the experiences I have had with it so far... I am not sure what you mean by you saying you consider me a troll, I am only familiar with that term as it pertains to a type of mythical Scandinavian creature, although you are obviously meaning something else by it... I am sorry if I have offended anyone, that wasn't my intention

 

Perhaps the Linux systems I have used were just not configured properly.. I haven't run extensive benchmarks, but I have timed the loading times of identical software such as Mozilla Firefox on both Windows and Linux, and it is faster on Windows by several minutes... I don't know exactly what you mean by preloading, but quite why the same web browser should load so quickly on Windos and so slowly on Linux, when the hardware is identical (and fairly current) I don't know. The software I primarily use at home is for audio and music production (Sonar, Cubase SX, Soundforge), and various 3d modelling apps (OK, Iknow a lot of the top of the range ones like Maya are available for Linux, but they are a bit out of my price range), Photoshop etc. I haven't found many programs that match the features of these that are available in Linux versions, and while The Gimp is pretty good, I am not too fond of the interface. That said I have found some gems that are also available on Linux, I have only used them on Windows so far.

 

And of course games - there are some that I know of that are ported to Linux, but not enough for me to consider abandoning Windows just yet.

 

As for the issue of needing a mouse or using it over a remote line- well that is not something I would ever concern myself with, and since I have several mice at my disposal the need to have one doesn't bother me. I guess if you are used to command lines you might find the dependance on amouse annoying...

 

I have never had anything to do with servers other than as an end user, so I will take it for granted that the prevailing opinion that Linux is the best option for a server system is the right one. That said the server at work is Linux, and it crashes on a weekly basis, so I don't know what the idiots in the IT department are doing wrong

 

 

To the best of my knowledge Mac Os X is based on Unix, not Linux, I was under the impression they were not quite the same thing, Although I'm sure the difference is fairly academic.

 

It seems that there are some very strong opinions in favour of Linux, so maybe I am being to quick to dismiss it just because I have had (and continue to have) bad experiences. I am not saying I absolutely hate it, just that I am still a bit sceptical of it's alleged superiority over Windows as a well rounded desktop machine. But you have piqued my curiosity enough that i might set up one of my other machines to run Linux - what distro do you think is best?

 

 

Out of curiosity, do you think driver support for new hardware for Linux is up to scratch in terms of running games like Doom 3 on high end hardware under Linux?

[oDDity]

Actually, you can use windows without a mouse, Sparhawk, as long as oyu have a keyboard obviously.

[modetwo]

Linux is great, but I could never have my users at work switch from Windows to a graphical Linux enviorment. It would simply confuse 99% of them, it would require hours and hours of new courses - not to say that I would probably spend all day sitting on the support phone helping Linux dummies starting a Write application.

 

Actually, I highly doubt we will ever move away from Windows. One thing is that our users would have a hard time adapt to the new system, another thing is that many applications and websites our users work with in the every day situation simply require IE 6.x and/or ActiveX. We've already had lots of problems with this since roughly 85-90% of our machine park is still running Windows NT (we're slowly progressing to XP these days).

 

Let me just add that I hate all of the code developers programming for IE/ActiveX and other must-have-Windows script languages.

[sparhawk]

Actually, you can use windows without a mouse, Sparhawk, as long as oyu have a keyboard obviously.

 

Try it.

[modetwo]

That's no problem at all as long as you know the keyboard shortcuts for right-click e.g.

 

(shift+F10)

[Domarius]

Hell yeah, keyboard is much faster for a lot of things when you know your way around.

 

Default windows interfaces are the only interfaces I know that anything you can do with the mouse, you can do with the keyboard. And they have to, for disabled people's special software.

 

Then 3rd party programs miss the point and don't use the default interface, and I can't work as fast :/

 

And don't get me started on Mac's interface.

Plus it's all very well to say Mac is so reliable and stable when it's hardly doing the variety of things that people do on PCs >. I would certainly use a Mac for video editing. But nothing else.

[FishFace]

I've also been using Linux as my desktop for over two years, and have to say that it's been (for the most part) fantastic, and far superior to windows, especially in terms of getting applications for it. I recently tried to download a CD Ripper for my friend, and couldn't find a single good one that wasn't pay-for. In the end, I'd conclude that your system must've been misconfigured, as my Windows system is pretty slow, even on my relatively high end computer, and my Ubuntu setup is pretty damn fast.

 

All in all, the few hiccups have been worth it for the experience, customisability and in fact usability I've gained...

[obscurus]

I work in a medical research laboratory, and a lot of my job involves maintaining a database which has a platform independent web based interface. So I use Firefox as my main software at work, as well as Konquerer. On the Windows XP machines, I can switch the machine on from a cold start, load up Windows, load up Firefox and have a page loaded before the Linux machine (which I booted simultaneously) has gotten a quarter of the way through booting up. On Linux, when I start to load Firefox, the mouse cursor starts drawing the Firefox icon wherever you move the mouse, and then the Firefox tab dissapears from the taskbar, then re-appears two to five minutes later and Firefox finally loads. And when you have finally got things working, the main (Linux) server will crash... This is a painful daily experience for me, and while it might just be the result of poorly configured machines, I have yet to see an actual working example of the much touted stability of Linux (at least as a desktop OS). My Windows XP machine at home hasn't crashed or locked up in two years (not counting an incident involving a faulty RAM upgrade), and runs very smoothly and quickly, so I'd have to be convinced that Linux was considerably better than Windows, and the software I use, particularly music software, would have to be available on Linux before I would consider ditching Windows in favour of Linux.

 

As for finding CD rippers that aren't pay-for, there are several, just do a google search. I have about five that are all pretty decent... iTunes is pretty decent, I believe Winamp has the capacity... I don't have a problem with paying for software anyway, so if I wan't something and I can't find a decent freeware app, I am happy to fork out some cash. As long as the price isn't outrageously exorbitant

Edited July 21, 2005 by obscurus

[Pyrian]

I work in a medical research laboratory, and a lot of my job involves maintaining a database which has a platform independent web based interface.

Hey, cool, that's almost exactly what I do (though I'm more on the development side now).

[obscurus]

Oh, I shouldn't have said 'maintaining', that was the wrong word to use, makes me sound like I meant I work on the IT side of things - I meant that I use and update it, though I feel sometimes like I know more about the bloody thing than the people who designed it do. I am a zoologist, I work with lab animals at the moment, and I use the database to keep records and keep track of breeding etc... Computers are a big hobby of mine though...