TDM Playstyle Poll

[Sotha]

Hi! There has been a lot of discussion about TDM playstyle recently. I got curious and would like to have a poll to see what kind of playstyles people prefer. 

Remember, there is no "wrong" way to enjoy a TDM mission.

[datiswous]

What do you mean with "tools"?

[Sotha]

3 minutes ago, datiswous said:

What do you mean with "tools"?

Thanks! Poll questions clarified a bit.

[wesp5]

I think the Predator description is a bit off, I don't pile them up. I hide them where nobody alive might see them :)!

[I.C.H.I.]

Bonking everybody is the juice of TDM and often it's more complicated than being a ghost. I especially love clearing out taverns full of people if it's really possible. Thankfully, most of the time it is and in some cases it requires thinking outside the box.

[chakkman]

 

4 hours ago, Sotha said:

Remember, there is no "wrong" way to enjoy a TDM mission.

"Predator: I love knocking everybody out and piling them up."

[chakkman]

Sorry, but, I don't find myself in any of those options. You might want to rephrase, or become aware of your motives for doing such a poll.

Edited November 26, 2024 by chakkman

[thebigh]

I mostly prefer ghosting whenever possible. For me it's a purer gamestyle, with greater challenge and more satisfaction when I can pull it off. I often like a quick "knock out everyone" playthrough too though. About the only style I can't stand is forced combat.

[thebigh]

12 minutes ago, chakkman said:

Sorry, but, I don't find myself in any of those options. You might want to rephrase, or become aware of your motives for doing such a poll.

 

What styles would you say are missing?

[chakkman]

I knock out guards, but, I don't "love" knocking "everybody" out, nor do I "love" piling "everybody" up. 

Very telling phraseology.

Edited November 26, 2024 by chakkman

[datiswous]

I recently played The Last Offering on expert and had to start over 2 times because I forgot to save and accidentelly knocked out the 4th person.. It's so easy to slip into habbits.

[ChronA]

I don't like using the blackjack. To me it's feels as artless as running around slaughtering everyone on the map from the shadows with your sword. Mechanically there is no difference at all between the two, and for role play I can't really buy into the fantasy that the blackjack is supposed to invoke. In the real world getting cranially bludgeoned with a sack of lead on a stick will absolutely kill you dead, nearly as surely as getting stabbed or shot with a low power arrow in the same location. (Real talk: if you bludgeon 7 or 8 guards during a mission, chances are more than one of them is not waking up after the mission is over, no matter what your score screen says!)

Gas arrows I like better. It's a fun puzzle trying to optimize the usage of those precious few arrows for maximum effect. It's also easier for me to suspend my disbelief in magic sleep gas than in magically physics and biology altering cudgels.

Consequently most of the time I do end up playing a pretty ghost-like style. I think leaving conscious enemies behind also makes the game more fun for backtracking.

I do save quite frequently, pretty much every few minutes, or every time I reach a particularly safe seeming spot. This just seems prudent to avoid huge loss of progress if I die or the game bugs out or crashes. However, I try not to ever reload unless absolutely forced to. Additionally I try to play with a rule that if I do reload because of an avoidable skill-failing on my part, I must discard some sort of rare resource that I will miss, like a special arrow or a health potion. Thus, to conserve resources, I almost always try to play the escape after I get caught. Admittedly, in such circumstances I tend to panic, so my survival rate is not always great, but I have had a few really thrilling escapes that remain quite memorable.

This system keeps me from deliberately scumming most of the time. However, it's tricky because I feel like quite a few missions are balanced around the assumption that players will save scum, and therefore need  to be challenging even taking that remarkable power into account. Consequently they are not balanced such that one can go discarding resources each time something goes wrong! This is discouraging, and there have been a few very high quality missions where I regrettably lost interest because I ran out of expendable consumables to drop after so many irrecoverable accidents.

Edited November 27, 2024 by ChronA

[Sotha]

8 hours ago, chakkman said:

Sorry, but, I don't find myself in any of those options. You might want to rephrase, or become aware of your motives for doing such a poll.

Just to clarify, my motivation is curiosity of how people prefer to play the game. This is interesting information from mapper's point of view, obviously.

8 hours ago, chakkman said:

I knock out guards, but, I don't "love" knocking "everybody" out, nor do I "love" piling "everybody" up. 

Very telling phraseology.

I just saw someone sharing a youtube video, where the author named that as one popular playstyle (1:30), hence it is on the list. It is a valid playstyle someone might have.

So please do not overthink it, but just choose the option that closest matches your preference. You can also refrain if you so choose, nothing wrong it that either.

[Loginnerer]

I used to not save at all, but over time I have built up the humility for it. TDM is a stealth game that I mainly fail not by being bad at stealth per se, but rather by being bad at jumping or dropping in a way that I am heard or killed.

I used to not use items, but over time I have accepted the Moss Arrow, because I needed something that would prevent me from getting frustrated whenever I land from a height that I realistically should be able to really easily descend silently from. 

Mainly a ghost purist, but I could see myself knock out a few dangerous guards, if I am not too stubborn about it.

To me, TDM shines the most in smaller to medium, or more linear missions where AI really establishes itself as a formidable threat. While large city hubs, mansions, and complex mazes that need to be memorized are not really my thing. I tend to lose interest (in achieving the perfect result) when a mission takes too long or I have too much safe room to manoeuvre. 

Glad to see a revered mission author active again.

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by Loginnerer

[datiswous]

4 hours ago, Sotha said:

 

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

We should have a playlist of video's about stealth gaming (not about the games themself).

I stopped playing Wolvestein the new order because of the forced auto save and respawn system. I see now there's actually a quicksave mod for it.

[Zerush]

Beeing a stealth game, in first line I try to ghost as far as possible, but it depends a lot of the mission. In some is stealth style the most used for me, in other, depending also my time  and mood, also predator, knocking all which move, also often in new larger missions to be able to explorar more in calm.

Saving mostly before entering in a new area.

I play most in the highest dificulty, in smaller missions most with 0 scroe and in longer and complexer ones <10, calm playstyle, I'm old

[peter_spy]

"Have you ever had and experience that disproves it?"

Yes. Prey: Mooncrash. I hated it in the beginning, but it grew on me and I ended up loving it. It was basically developers saying: "We get it, but trust us, we want you to be able to experience the simulation in its whole glory. Just give it a go." And they were right, that Prey DLC is superb. I learned that stepping out of my bubble to experience something slightly different can be very rewarding and made me appreciate developer's efforts even more. I'd probably savescum my way through it, but in Mooncrash, dealing with consequences of your failures is more fun / challenge, and without quick reloads you get to see how simulation can respond to it, often with unpredictable and hilarious ways. It's sometimes unfair because of that randomness, but oh boy, it's also super interesting and rewarding, when you actually finish your run by the skin of your teeth.

Also, I like checkpoint saves in games, it's an art of its own in game design. When I don't have to think about saving at all, because automatic checkpoints handle it for me in seamless and unobtrusive manner, so I can focus on playing – that's the best scenario for me

Btw. there's a whole separate topic in psychology of games related to saving systems. LGS / Ion Storm's Randy Smith made a presentation on compulsive saving / loading, "How to help players stop saving all the time" – something like that I can share it with anyone interested.

Edited November 27, 2024 by peter_spy

[thebigh]

My experience of Mooncrash was different. Like you I disliked it immediately but everyone kept telling me it'd grow on me eventually, so I stuck it out for six or eight hours. It still felt unfair and pointless to me, and I simply didn't care about the characters, so I gave up.

[I.C.H.I.]

The only notable thing about Mooncrash DLC for me is the ugliest characters in the entire history of gamedesign, they look so bad that it's absolutely remarkable that it was totally fine for the devs to put them in the game.

[wesp5]

42 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

Also, I like checkpoint saves in games, it's an art of its own in game design. When I don't have to think about saving at all, because automatic checkpoints handle it for me in seamless and unobtrusive manner, so I can focus on playing – that's the best scenario for me

I agree with that and, oh boy, do I hate all the games that don't place these correctly, but instead e.g. before a long unskippable cutscene up front to a boss fight or before a long winded pointless way to reach a jumping puzzle instead of immediately before the place where it gets dangerous!

[ChronA]

5 hours ago, peter_spy said:

LGS / Ion Storm's Randy Smith made a presentation on compulsive saving / loading, "How to help players stop saving all the time" – something like that I can share it with anyone interested.

I don't think I've seen that. Now I'm curious.

[RedEmber]

9 hours ago, peter_spy said:

"Have you ever had and experience that disproves it?"

Yes. Prey: Mooncrash.

For me it was Hitman. I imagine if this pool was made last year on a Hitman forum most players, including myself, would answer that they save and load very often, and always go for perfect stealth. Which could lead one to arrive mistakenly at the conclusion that there is no value in save restrictions or encouraging non-ghosting gameplay.

Then the "Freelancer" gamemode update came out, a mode masterfully designed to make the player have to roll with all punches at the threat of perma-death, and it is beloved by the community and regarded as one of the best stealth experiences currently available. I was suddenly bringing into missions shotguns, grenades, and all sorts of tool I'd NEVER used while playing through all the trilogy, because why would I ever use a shotgun in a Hitman game before?

It's clear that the mode was very deliberately designed to make us stop doing the whole "bring only a lockpick and coins to all missions and do nothing but sneak and reload when seen", and instead engage with the whole of the game, and it has clearly worked.

Almost everything in Freelancer could already be done manually by the player before the mode existed, play random missions with random equipment and don't load. That means nothing, there is still immense value in the mode and restrictions existing as an extra gamemode, there's a reason people like the mode so much.

At around 13 minutes this video illustrates my points:

 

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, RedEmber said:

I was suddenly bringing into missions shotguns, grenades, and all sorts of tool I'd NEVER used while playing through all the trilogy, because why would I ever use a shotgun in a Hitman game before?

I never played a Hitman game, but I know this approach from other games, like Cyberpunk 2077. I use stealth until I am discovered and then I use force! Sadly I never figured out to fight with the sword in TDM so it isn't an option for me here. Also most missions have a no kills condition...

Edited November 28, 2024 by wesp5

[datiswous]

18 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Also, I like checkpoint saves in games, it's an art of its own in game design. When I don't have to think about saving at all, because automatic checkpoints handle it for me in seamless and unobtrusive manner, so I can focus on playing – that's the best scenario for me

In Fear 2 I found I couldn't stop playing (in this case a negative), because it saves always right before a battle scene, but after the battle I often didn't want to do the battle again (in a next play), so I played till the next save, which then was often the next battle...

For me it's fine it excists, but not as the only save option, except if it is done in an exceptional way (maybe). If you remove manual saves, your game has to be altered to make up for that. And often I think game makers have no clue what is good, so well..

Edited November 28, 2024 by datiswous

[datiswous]

Quote

I save every 1 - 5 min of gameplay.

For me it's more like every 15 seconds or so.