Underground Lighting

[Gildoran]

I was just thinking about underground lighting and a few questions about theme/gameplay popped into my head... I figured these questions could be fun to discuss/debate.

 

How are areas that are deep underground typically going to be lit? The classic mushrooms and glowing crystals? If there are glowing crystals, then how come nobody mines them and uses them as a safe alternative to torches (ie a light-source without a fire-hazard)? More importantly, if they're not common enough to be mined, wouldn't the thief want to pry them loose with his/her sword and sell them?

 

What if the player puts out all the torches in an area or there's no good thematic reason for a certain room to have any light in it? Will there by any kind of flashlight-ish item for such cases, so the player can look around in the darker areas of the map when nobody is nearby? (could they use a fire-crystal as a torch or something?)

 

On the topic of lighting and underground areas, an idea occured to me... What if undead creatures could see in the dark but were blind in light? It could make for an interesting reversal of gameplay compared to standard human guards. I don't know if it's good or not, but I figured it might be worth expressing.

[Domarius]

Interesting indeed I have always wanted to do something about this.

 

I always like telling people about Thief being set in the "Dark" ages: Yes it was so dark in those days, the game developers had to "invent" light mushrooms to get some light happening in there!

 

You bring up a good point. Many FMs (and I think some OMs) I have seen have a light, coming from nowhere, just there to light up a dark sewer pipe or cave.

 

Most games set in a modern setting don't have to cop out like this because the player has some sort of built in flash light they can use.

 

We have flares in Thief... but flares run out.

 

What people used to do in those days was to take a burning torch, and provisions for keeping it lit. And how badly I wanted this feature in my FM. I had a wine cellar, built the traditional way, and lighting this damn thing with torches every few meters was one of the main reasons I blew my DarkMod object limit!! All the while I was thinking "God damn, this shouldn't be nessecary. The player should be able to take the torch at the top of the stairs with them as a light source, placed there specifically for this purpose, just like they did in those days."

 

 

I think we should seriously consider allowing the player to take certain torches from their sconces.

 

You would have the usual variety of light sources found in the Thief games, but we would have an extra type that you could take from the wall and carry with you.

 

 

Regardiing creatures that can see in the dark - would be very scarey and also very difficult for the player. They would have to be used very sparingly in a mission.

[Gildoran]

I love the idea of torches because of how they're realistic and the notion of walking through a wine-cellar or some catacombs holding up a torch is very atmospheric (and I think atmosphere was Thief's best attribute). I also like it because it makes it possible to limit where the player can take the light (impossible to take it through water and difficult to take a lit torch through an area with lots of guards).

 

On the other hand I worry about a player running around tossing all the torches they can find into a puddle of water and then being unable to complete the mission due to lack of light (and not having a fire to relight the torches from). Also... it makes it difficult to come up with good lighting schemes for caves where the player has to go underwater often. Would it be possible to allow mappers to choose whether to give the player a "light pendant" or something in addition to allowing some torches to be pickup-able?

[Domarius]

Well the torch throwing thing is solved by using "pick-up-able" torches sparingly when designing the map.

[Springheel]

Our thief is going to have a portable light source.

[Maximius]

Just a quick point about realism, I have always found it disconcerting, as Gildoran points out, to find torches merrily crackling away a thousand feet underground in the lair of the Undead. Who keeps up such lighting? The zombies?

 

Now of course this doesnt apply to human/humanoid habitats, but in abandoned castles and dungeons I believe the light sources should consist of exactly this:

Glowing mushrooms, crystals, and faerie fire or will o' the wisps. Now if the Thief finds some old torches, it would be cool for him to be able to relight them, thats fine and makes narrative sense. A personal light source would be a great addition as well, beats nocking and drawing a fire arrow to find your way.

[sparhawk]

Personally I would hate to run through such an environment, even if it were more realistic because of this.

[Domarius]

Our thief is going to have a portable light source.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you link me to the related discussion? It's not documented in our desicion thread yet.

[Springheel]

It's an old thread: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...1&st=&p=entry

[Maximius]

What about giving the Thief some sort of infravision, or night vision? I know he doesnt have Garretts Mechanist eye but it seems something could be dreamed up to give him the ability to see in the dark.

Edited July 11, 2005 by Maximius

[Springheel]

I think nightvision goggles might feel too much like Splinter Cell.

[Dr.Spangle]

Just a note regarding those underground torches which are lit regardless of them being untended for a bajillion years, I think these actually add to the atmosphere immensely, because of the eerieness surrounding them. They aren't supposed to be lit, so there's some kind of evil presence there keeping it that way.

[Drakon]

All my maps are going to have some amount of magic; one plan for a map I have will involve a whole lot of magical lightsources, and sunlight shining in from above into an otherwise dark pit. Also, lava is a possible underground light source. I'm unsure how much light molten lava gives off IRL, but oh well. It can look cool. I doubt I'll be having magical mushrooms, though.

[Diego]

yeah, i think the torch pickable is a nice way to add atmosphere, realism. and about the chance of the player thowing all of them in the water.. we cant blame ourselves if the player is stupid, he must know that his actions might make the mission fail. other example, if he has to interrogate someone, and he kills him! well, instead of not allowing for that to hapen, the mission should simply be impossible to complete as it would in real life, then he should be smart enough to restart it.

atmosphere is the major key IMO for thief genre, i know a lot of people like the 'magic' the 'sneak', wich i of course love it too, but the atmosphere of walking slowly into a rocky tunnel, when the only light source is on your hand moving with you, with little drops sound.. aaahhh! that's what brings spice to the atmosphere! hehe

[SplaTtzZ]

Having a portable lightsource is definitely a good idea. On the one hand it benefits you with being able to see your environment; on the other it makes you a beacon to any AI in the area. If it acted like a lantern, with a light radius centred on the player, instead of a flashlight such as Doom 3 might use; then map designers could implement all sorts of spooky stuff. Imagine walking through a pitch black cavern only being able to see a metre in front of you when suddenly you run straight into a pack of silent zombies. Hehehe. I would probably soil myself

[DopeFishhh]

Well, perhaps magical torches? burn with a different flame colour for that eerie feeling.

 

How about a lighter? I don't think it would be terribly hard for a hammerite or mechanist (or any other mechanically inclined individual) to create a lighter of sorts. They had the gas lamps in thief 2. Or you could make the lighter magical, though it wouldn't be much of a difference.

 

Thinking about fire, would it be going too far to make a semi realistic fire system? where fire can spread (given fuel). I'd like to see missions where the player goes in to steal something and uses a fire as cover to escape or something like it. And it would be cool seeing fire arrows set the guards clothing alight and them running about screaming, trying to find water or something to put it out. or the player being traped in a burning building and needing to stumble his way through the flames and smoke to escape.

 

The only problem is that if you were to make it realistic in terms of buildings burning down, well that obviously puts a huge strain on modeling a building, and could also unbalance the game with the player going pyromaniac on the mission. And IMO flames as currently rendered in games today are pretty crapily done, and from what i can tell a particle system that does fire justice would suck alot of cycles, so it would either chug or look like shit.

 

Just for a bit of a giggle factor if the lights are out both the player and any human guards should have big trouble seeing and hitting each other, any sound should give the player (or the guards) position away (so guards try to be quiet as well).

 

on the nightvision stuff, in Dungeons and Dragons there are a few things creatures/characters can have to improve their vision/detection:

 

Low light vision - light is amplified.

 

Dark vision - magical, can see in total darkness but only in greyscale.

 

True seeing - magical, everything looks as though it's lit by candle light and there are no shadows, the characters eye's glow and no creature in line of sight can hide from them.

 

Scent - obviously for creatures with a good sense of smell, ie dogs. but it could add that little bit extra to the game, like guard dogs, if you come close enough they will be able to smell you even if they can't see you and start seeking you out.

 

Perhaps it could be possible to add those as something a mission maker can enable with specific magic items or on other creatures/guards/NPC's as default.

 

ah shit i ranted again...

[Domarius]

Heh, I brought up 2 of those points with the team already - guards having trouble seeing in pitch black, and enemies that find you by smell. Still discussing

[Maximius]

I dont want NVGs either and the spooky colored Party-Pak torches are great sometimes but its hard to believe that EVERY abandoned castle, rotting mansion, defiled church, or ancient cave would have an obviously man-made light source like a torch burning away merrily for thousands of years until the Thief stops by. Are there no DARK places in the DarkMod?

 

There has to be a magical way out. A potion of night vision, amulet of true vision, monocle of magnificent magnification, whatever. As for a sense of smell, its a great idea, and one sorely missing from the Thief universe. Goodness, none of the guards ever thought of hunting for a Thief with a dog? They got rats,cats,giant preying mantiss, and bats, but no mutts?

 

"Benny, release the hounds!"

Edited July 12, 2005 by Maximius

[Springheel]

Seeing how Thief is a game about hiding, letting a thief wander around in totally dark environments while being able to see is like letting him walk around without making any noise. It makes it far too easy for the player.

[Diego]

good point, i'm not sure if allowing him to see in the dark woud be a great idea, but abandoned places could have torches for the player to lit. and the exploring he should do with one in hand.. it's interesting, because he will have to worry about the sound to know it there's anyone around, since he'll be the only thing visible there lol

[Pyrian]

Seeing how Thief is a game about hiding, letting a thief wander around in totally dark environments while being able to see is like letting him walk around without making any noise.  It makes it far too easy for the player.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That depends a lot on whether the other denizens of the darkness need light to detect an intruder - scent, bat-sonar, undead with darkvision are all appropriate for such an environment, indeed, more appropriate than Benny stumbling about blind.

[obscurus]

Burning torches were actually not a very common form of lighting in the Middle Ages - they burn out quickly, and usually produce a large amount of black smoke (depending on what oil or fat was used as the fuel). In RL Middle Ages, people used candles, large fireplaces, and oil lamps to light their way, but mostly they just went to bed soon after dark, and those that stayed up during the night just had to rely on good vision in the dark to see. People used torches as a temporary, portable light source, and only used them for as long as was required

- you would never see a mediaeval dungeon or catacomb lined with rows or burning torches, they would take too much work to maintain (in RL a torch will burn out after about 20 minutes or so, depending on the size and whether or not it was refreshed by dipping it in oil). A guard in a dungeon would take a torch with him as needed, and when he left, the prisoners of the dungeon would rely on whatever natural light made its way in.

 

 

I prefer realism in this case - having magical light sources is something I would personally avoid. I would rather see balanced maps where dark areas are as dark as they would be in RL. The player should be able to light torches and carry them around, and I can't see how dousing too many torches would make you fail the mission, that would be pretty poor level design, it might just make certain areas very difficult to navigate. I don't mind the idea of luminous mushrooms and plants - there are organisms in RL that do that (no mushrooms that I'm aware of though), it doesn't require magic. If TDM is going for more emphasis on the Victorian aspect of the setting, then you could use gas powered lamps to light large underground sections. Otherwise, set your maps so that there is enough natural moonlight that most areas have at least a little bit of light...

 

You might also be surprised at just how well the human eye can adapt to darkness - a person who has spent years mostly in darkness will be able to see quite well in rooms that your average modern city dwelling, electric light using person would regard as pitch black.

[Springheel]

That depends a lot on whether the other denizens of the darkness need light to detect an intruder - scent, bat-sonar, undead with darkvision are all appropriate for such an environment, indeed, more appropriate than Benny stumbling about blind.

 

Perhaps, but if the AI can see, and the thief can see...what's the point of having it dark?

[Darkness_Falls]

They will also be very pale and have no eyes -- like those eyeless cave fish Hee, j/k

 

 

I prefer water arrows and torches. It's how the Thief universe was built and I personally enjoyed that aspect of the game, no matter how unreal it might've been.

 

I can envision your game being very cool, candlelight flames, etc.... but not for when trying to achieve gameplay reminiscent of Thief.

 

Taking torches off walls should maybe be permissable as it would add a level of realism and interactivity with the environment. However, as a thief who likes and needs to linger in the shadows, I would hope players would rather not ...

[SplaTtzZ]

There might be a 'realistic' solution that dev's could implement to solve the old problem of wood torches burning in the hundred-year old abandoned catacombs of where-ever. Don't quote me on this, but Whale Oil was used mostly during the Victorian Era; both in candles and lamps; and burned with a clear, bright flame that lasted for quite a while. It was also used in Asia. Supposedly the Emperor Qin's tomb, discovered in the last century, had lamps with a large vat of whale oil built in the wall behind them. Though reports are sketchy, because the tomb hasn't been opened to the public since its discovery in the 70's, the first people to enter the tomb found many of the lamps still burning (after a few thousand years).

 

I suppose if we wanted a realistic solution to the lighting of abandoned crypts and caves problem; this might be better than saying they're lit by 'magic' (of course Luminous Fungii is one too, but probably better for caves). As thief is in a fantasy setting, it would not be too much of a stretch to suppose that they would be able to implement a lamp with a reserve of oil built into the wall behind it. The modellers may be able to implement some design like this.

 

Anyways, just a suggestion

 

Edit: I suppose if the Dev's were so inclined they could also just create a torch thats 'magic; and that burns forever, unless put out'. Hey, Thief does have magical elements in it; so even this would be plausible! (But lazy)

Edited July 13, 2005 by SplaTtzZ