Stop Destroying Videogames initiative: EU/UK

[jaxa]

https://www.stopkillinggames.com/faq

This game kicked it off:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crew_(video_game)

Major online-only DRM examples you've actually heard of: Diablo III and Diablo IV.

[revelator]

will be fun when the denuvo drm based game servers go down  they still havent cracked the version in the callisto protocol so even though the game is single player it needs to phone home or the game simply will not start.

[chakkman]

4 hours ago, revelator said:

will be fun when the denuvo drm based game servers go down  

DRMs like that pose the problem, not DRMs in general. They're responsible for most stuff which doesn't work anymore here. Although I must say that that is really the vast minority. Most stuff is still working, even after 20 years. Ultimately, it's not like on Mac OS, where every OS update can break stuff, or the change of processor architecture once a decade Apple is so "famous" for, which renders ANY old software non-operable.

Bunch of crazies. And their fans still throw money at everything they do.

Edited July 9, 2025 by chakkman

[revelator]

yeah though i newer quite got the need to imply drm on a singleplayer game to start with , sure piracy and whatnot but also means you cannot play if you're on a trip with your laptop somewhere with no internet.

denuvo is kinda overkill for a singleplayer game but would make sense in a multiplayer one.

truth be told not a lot of game companies have been on the forefront of releasing there sources like id used to do so a lot of the workarounds over the years were hacked together and would still benefit from the original source code.

one example would be the blood ports. the devs who maintain these did not have the sources so it took more than a decade of slowly hacking the missing stuff into the duke nukem sources and there are still bugs.

and we did have the duke3d opengl port from the guy who created the original dos based renderer to start from.

luckily this engine was used in quite a lot of older games or things would have looked bleak indeed.

[Skaruts]

8 hours ago, revelator said:

denuvo is kinda overkill for a singleplayer game but would make sense in a multiplayer one.

On the contrary, it makes more sense in a singleplayer game. The point of DRM is to prevent piracy (especially during the first weeks of release). A singleplayer game doesn't have any inherent need to connect to any servers like a multiplayer game does, so the only way to authenticate the game is to add that in in the form of a DRM.

A multiplayer game doesn't necessarily need a DRM. It can be authenticated as you connect to official servers or an official online store or something like that.

The need for online authentication arrived when physical copies became obsolete, because they could no longer use the old annoying anti-piracy methods, all of which were also very weak, so they needed new annoying ones that couldn't be so easily bypassed. 

Singleplayer games always had some form of DRM. Except they used to be annoying to everyone, now they're only annoying to the paying customers.

 

9 hours ago, chakkman said:

Most stuff is still working, even after 20 years.

Although it's worth keeping in mind that stuff that was made 20 years ago or more, didn't use online DRMs. Many of them used CD/DVD copy protections, which never become obsolete. But they were all weaker anti-piracy methods.

Edited July 10, 2025 by Skaruts

[revelator]

well it might make sense for the developers but for the consumer not really. see point about denuvo servers being taken down at some point in the future leaving you with so much scrap cause chances are it will newer get removed as it is tightly integrated with the games source making it a venture i bet most developers would not throw money at removing. older drm while weaker mostly used an external dll as a plugin which made it easier to remove for the most part though i know of a few older models that were rather annoying to do so with (tages for one).

and i get the intellectual property part but some corps take it to the extreme clinging to 20 to 30 year old source code that will newer be used again.

[Skaruts]

I agree with you from that perspective. But the companies don't see it that way, though.

I stopped buying any game that contains DRM since around 2010, due to all the reasons why they're a problem to paying customers. Day one of Assassin's Creed II I was comfortably playing a pirated copy to see how I liked the game, while paying customers were all waiting for hours for Ubisoft to unclog their DRM servers. That was the moment I decided to never buy a DRM game again.

Problem is, I've been pretty much alone in that. That's actually the real problem. Most people are ok with DRM.

Edited July 10, 2025 by Skaruts

[chakkman]

11 hours ago, Skaruts said:

Although it's worth keeping in mind that stuff that was made 20 years ago or more, didn't use online DRMs. Many of them used CD/DVD copy protections, which never become obsolete. But they were all weaker anti-piracy methods.

That's right. Online DRMs which stop working are a real problem. I already wrote that a few posts earlier.

[chakkman]

3 hours ago, Skaruts said:

Problem is, I've been pretty much alone in that. That's actually the real problem. Most people are ok with DRM.

Frankly, if it allows for companies to survive, and offer games at a reasonable price, then DRMs are a good thing, from which everyone benefits. Nobody "likes" DRM, not publishers nor buyers, but, nobody likes locking home doors or cars either. It's a necessity, because some people aren't decent enough to pay working people what they deserve and need to make a living. Or they just rob them blind.

Edited July 10, 2025 by chakkman

[Xolvix]

11 hours ago, chakkman said:

Frankly, if it allows for companies to survive, and offer games at a reasonable price, then DRMs are a good thing, from which everyone benefits. Nobody "likes" DRM, not publishers nor buyers, but, nobody likes locking home doors or cars either. It's a necessity, because some people aren't decent enough to pay working people what they deserve and need to make a living. Or they just rob them blind.

I don't know if I'd call it a necessity given places like GOG exist. I might tolerate some DRM so long as it's crackable or there's a plan in place to remove it at some point. I read somewhere that Denuvo has moved to a subscription model which has motivated publishers to remove it after a while once its value has diminished beyond a certain amount. I think this is the reason why games sometimes release an update that removes Denuvo after a while - most of the bulk purchases would have been made by that point so there's no value in continuing payments for it.

14 hours ago, Skaruts said:

That's actually the real problem. Most people are ok with DRM.

Unfortunately it's taken a lifetime for me to accept that I have very little influence in most matters and ultimately the only decisions I can make are those for myself. If I wish to boycott a company or product or anyone that is doing something I disagree with, that is a personal decision and I cannot expect others to do the same. Even if it means your hobby or interest ends up going to shit because of the indifference of others, it sucks but all you can either do is navigate the shit or do something else.

We must follow our own value systems, even when there's an incredible amount of money invested in an industry that is continually pressuring us to not do so (you MUST play this game, you MUST buy this console, you're missing out! FOMO, etc).

Edited July 11, 2025 by Xolvix

[revelator]

heh most people would be ok with living in a police state with cameras up their ass  just goes to show that as a species we are not as bright as we think. for the record i do not endorse stealing i just think we sometimes accept way to much.

gog user myself  

[revelator]

in retrospect the developers are not at fault here the corporations that own them are.

i would be thrilled if say EA started to treat there staff as something more than just walking ATM's and start giving them time to actually finish a product instead of forcing the corporate line of time is money so crunch crunch crunch.

i lost count of how many tripple A developers got axed by them for not being able to keep up with the shareholder demands . bioware the dead space crew etc etc.

also does not help that most modern games have to be hyper realistic and so take a good deal of time to build (no matter what the higher up's say).

respect to those who can actually live in an environment like that  id be a nervous wreck if i had to.

[chakkman]

4 hours ago, revelator said:

heh most people would be ok with living in a police state with cameras up their ass

TBH, in the country I live in (Germany), I would prefer if we had a lot more security cameras, as it's such an essential ressource for prosecution to solve crimes. And, for law enforcement and the cities to prevent crimes. Other countries rely much more on it (USA and the UK, for example), and don't have this stupid "The right of privacy weighs more than the prevention of serious crime". Actually, a representative of a city nearby said that 1:1, when there were questions raised about the installation of security cameras in criminal hotspots. I don't understand this mentality. It's pretty misanthropic in my eyes.

Edited July 11, 2025 by chakkman

[revelator]

With proper oversight and i do not mean government here... im all for it. And by proper i mean normal people like you and me since we are the ones who are mostly targetted. Seing what happens overseas right now gives you an idea why law enforcement and judges should not answer to the state. The state can pin out laws and if these laws are applicable consented to by the judical system, not we say so so heres how it is going to be.

[chakkman]

I guess we have to agree to disagree on that.  I saw horrible pictures from overseas, with unrelated innocent people targetted once again by "protesters" (which are in fact rioters), and they would do sh** about that in California, if it wasn't for government intervention. Their governor is an absolute laughing stock. If they don't do anything about it, it'll only get worse and worse.

And, I don't even want to think about when stuff like that will happen over here in Europe/Germany (which I think it will). Because, in Germany, I guarantee you, they wouldn't do anything about it, apart from playing the neutral idle bystander, because politicians are scared to take the unpopular side.

Edited July 11, 2025 by chakkman

[thebigh]

That's all fine in Germany, I suppose, where you can generally trust the authorities. But where I live I don't really trust cops not to falsify, doctor, or creatively edit the footage, or conveniently "lose" all the exculpatory stuff. That'd go double if I lived in America. My enduring image of the California "riots", which were actually mostly peaceful marches that avoided where all the paramilitary goons were hanging out, was of cops shooting an unarmed reporter in the back.

[Xolvix]

I post for the first time since January with a detailed response about an important(ish) topic and I get a laugh reaction.

In all seriousness though, if one doesn't like DRM they have to be careful posting nowadays since a lot of people have a lot of time invested in games and platforms with DRM of various sorts, and any issues you raise with the game/platform these people will take as personal attacks against themselves, even though it was never intended. Not so bad here, but reddit and Steam forums? Good God.

1 hour ago, thebigh said:

That's all fine in Germany, I suppose, where you can generally trust the authorities. But where I live I don't really trust cops not to falsify, doctor, or creatively edit the footage, or conveniently "lose" all the exculpatory stuff. That'd go double if I lived in America. My enduring image of the California "riots", which were actually mostly peaceful marches that avoided where all the paramilitary goons were hanging out, was of cops shooting an unarmed reporter in the back.

Bruh we both live in Australia, it's not that bad here with regards to the authorities most of the time. I mean it does depend where you live (I'm in SA) but comparing our cops to those in the US is like using a cheat code.

[thebigh]

4 minutes ago, Xolvix said:

I mean it does depend where you live (I'm in SA) but comparing our cops to those in the US is like using a cheat code.

 

I'm in Victoria, and it's not that bad here yet, but I see the way coppers carry on in QLD or NSW and I worry.

[revelator]

Well the so called rioters were actually pretty peacefull until someone started sending in marines and what not , so freedom of speech only applies to some people ? Ouch. Im not familiar with the governor but he seems like an ok guy from what i could gather, but stereotyping people based on thirdhand experiences mostly ends badly so no comment . As for the idea with a non government affiliated judical system i actually believe it would be better than what is currently at hand. Hell even in little denmark it is allmost impossible to get the government higher ups prosecuted for offences because they can just make it legal meaning 99% of judges dont even want to try even if the case is waterproof. Other than that and a somewhat overprotective attitude towards certain things it is not to bad here either. Beating up teslas though is in the wtf! territory. You might not like the man behind the company but the car did nothing to you so in that regard id be on the lock em up boat. But voicing your opinion should be ok for anyone.

[revelator]

I post for the first time since January with a detailed response about an important(ish) topic and I get a laugh reaction. 

Oh xolvix the laugh was a bit selfironical i do agree for the most part. 

[Xolvix]

On 7/13/2025 at 3:23 PM, revelator said:

I post for the first time since January with a detailed response about an important(ish) topic and I get a laugh reaction. 

Oh xolvix the laugh was a bit selfironical i do agree for the most part. 

Nah it's OK, I'm not that sensitive.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see if much happens. I assume with the extra votes it'll probably hit the threshold for the number of real legitimate votes required to progress, but I have concerns it'll not be treated by lawmakers as a serious topic due to the focus being on gaming, despite it actually being more about consumer rights.

[revelator]

Yeah im also in that bandwagon.

But doing nothing is just as bad so theres atleast that.

[Xolvix]

True, I have nothing but respect for Ross for at least giving it a go.

I remember seeing in one of his videos how he said he didn't really want to necessarily spearhead this project, but he had to at least try something because he was getting more and more frustrated about seeing games die with no legal recourse for those who purchased them. His motivation was that no-one else was pursuing anything similar so he wanted to try himself and chose a particular window of opportunity (discontinuation of The Crew) as being the time to do it.

He's also stated how even if the whole thing ends up going nowhere, he's at least satisfied he gave it his best go. Ross said he'd be more bothered if he didn't try something, basically. Even if the law doesn't change, this whole process might help provide some clarity in terms of what rights people have (or don't have).