Why so Few Campaigns?

[OnlyTaffingCowardsHide]

Half the fun of the original games is using all your ill gotten gains to buy equipment. 
There are many single missions that are part of a series but only a few actual campaigns. 
Is this something to do with engine limitations?

[nbohr1more]

Nope, just a lot of setup work to convert to a campaign pack:

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Setting_up_Campaigns

Lots of mappers use Sotha's button controlled briefing setup and nobody created a campaign friendly version of that so authors would have to scrap their existing briefings.

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Briefing

Finally, authors often become better at making missions as they progress through their series and then don't want to pack what they consider inferior early missions next to the better newer missions. They also don't want to go back and improve the old missions just to make a campaign pack. The more campaign packs get made the more pressure there will be for authors stomach doing fixes to old missions.

Several mission authors have indicated that they would be fine with having someone else pack their missions together into a campaign but nobody has volunteered to try.

[demagogue]

Campaigns take a ton of work, even more so for an individual or very small team, and we're a small community. 

There are a lot of half-made campaigns that never got released.

And actually we usually tell new mappers to start with smaller missions just to learn how to make a good mission. It takes a lot of work just to get to the level where a mapper is ready to make a campaign too. 

That's why when there is a good campaign that comes out, it's a marvel that it actually gets released. 

I agree it'd be fantastic to see more of them, including the fact that missions are even better when they have that continuity and things like being able to spend your loot for the next mission, for sure. 

[I.C.H.I.]

I prefer single mission format for the sake of replayability, because I may not like all the missions in a campaign but if I decide to replay my favorite then I also must beat those that precede it and this is very inconvenient and time-consuming.

[SeriousToni]

I too miss campaigns so much. The loot is only for meeting the mission goal currently which is takes away a lot of the fun spending it for equipment to the next mission. I really hope we can get more campaigns in the future. 

[datiswous]

On 7/22/2025 at 4:53 AM, nbohr1more said:

Lots of mappers use Sotha's button controlled briefing setup and nobody created a campaign friendly version of that so authors would have to scrap their existing briefings.

What?? Never heard of this. It's not that difficult I think..

Edit: It's actually kind of difficult and a lot of work.

On 7/22/2025 at 4:53 AM, nbohr1more said:

Several mission authors have indicated that they would be fine with having someone else pack their missions together into a campaign but nobody has volunteered to try.

I don't remember ever read about this before. Otherwise I might've give it a try.

 

I would like to see some examples..

Spoiler

I personally think the format of separative missions is better. Although I guess you could have a briefing in which you could select the mission to play? (I think via "gui::persistent_builtin_startMap")

 

Edit: I wonder if the briefing gui supports specifying the map file via a selection menu and then via if commands a different briefing could be shown on the next page in the navigation.

So for example the first page of the mission(s) briefing could show:

• Play Mission The Lieutenant 1: In Plain Sight
• Play Mission The Lieutenant 2: High Expectations

Then in the briefing gui there is if code that tells what will be shown on briefing page 2 depending on what is selected.

When you would select "Play Mission The Lieutenant 1: In Plain Sight" the next page of the briefing would be the first page of the "In Plain Sight" - briefing and on mission start it loads the "In Plain Sight" map.

Edit: This won't help the wish for use of shop between missions. sorry for derailing.

Edited August 5 by datiswous

[datiswous]

On 7/22/2025 at 4:53 AM, nbohr1more said:

Lots of mappers use Sotha's button controlled briefing setup and nobody created a campaign friendly version of that so authors would have to scrap their existing briefings.

Do you think this is still a wanted feature?

[nbohr1more]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Do you think this is still a wanted feature?

Yes. Sir Taffsalot wanted his 3 missions packed into a campaign but couldn't do it before he passed away. It would be great to have one of his final wishes come to fruition.

[JackFarmer]

7 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Yes. Sir Taffsalot wanted his 3 missions packed into a campaign but couldn't do it before he passed away. It would be great to have one of his final wishes come to fruition.

Well, I could imagine doing that, provided I would be allowed to:

a. replace the text videos with real briefing videos & narration
b. add new title menu screen and new music
c. add EFX to all missions
d. add volumetric light to existing light sources and particle effects where I think it is appropriate
e. add shops at the beginning of all missions (otherwise the whole project would make no sense in the first place)

 

Edited July 24 by JackFarmer

[datiswous]

3 hours ago, JackFarmer said:

Well, I could imagine doing that, provided I would be allowed to:

a. replace the text videos with real briefing videos & narration
b. add new title menu screen and new music
c. add EFX to all missions
d. add volumetric light to existing light sources and particle effects where I think it is appropriate
e. add shops at the beginning of all missions (otherwise the whole project would make no sense in the first place)

None of these are what he asked for. I don't see why shops are needed if they weren't already there.

[wesp5]

How would you use your loot to buy resources in the next campaign mission without shops?

[Skaruts]

I think it's largely because the amount of work that it takes adds up with each mission that it involves, and it becomes way more than anyone alone can chew. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think all existing campaigns were made by several people, so it requires people getting together and committing to it.

I had some ideas on a set of about 6 missions that I wanted to turn into a full campaign, due to story continuity, but... at some point I realized that it's a tremendous undertaking.

It took me a year to make a small, simple mission. At that pace it would take me 6 years to make that campaign, which is already way too long. With experience I might get things done quicker, but it's already taking me longer than a year to make each of the other missions I've been working on... the ETA on that campaign idea only keeps looking worse.

I'm better off releasing each mission on its own and build a series of missions over time, like most people do. Finishing works keeps motivation up.

[chakkman]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

How would you use your loot to buy resources in the next campaign mission without shops?

The problem would be that the missions aren't balanced for the intended starting equipment anymore. 

The original Thiefs also didn't have a shop before every mission either, IIRC. Or did Thief II have that, and Thief 1 didn't? I don't remember now.

Either way, the landlord has to be paid as well.  

Edited July 24 by chakkman

[Amadeus]

Vengeance for a Thief 3 has a shop, so the things for sale there can simply be transferred over when packaging the campaign. Vengeance for a Thief 2, however, has the player starting in a prison cell, and there is no shop available, so given the context of having a player in prison, it wouldn't make sense to have a shop here

5 hours ago, JackFarmer said:

a. replace the text videos with real briefing videos & narration
b. add new title menu screen and new music
c. add EFX to all missions
d. add volumetric light to existing light sources and particle effects where I think it is appropriate
e. add shops at the beginning of all missions (otherwise the whole project would make no sense in the first place)

I don't think adding volumetric lights and particle effects throughout the map should be done to already existing missions without the mapper's consent. The placement of VL lights is an artistic choice made by the mapper. The same with particle effects. I also don't know why briefing videos would need to be made or title menu screen music. These are all artistic choices that don't I don't think have any bearing on whether or not this series can be released as one single packaged campaign (although I'm happy to be corrected on this if I'm wrong). 

It would be great to honor his wishes to make it one single package, but placing VL lights, particles and new music doesn't really qualify IMO

[datiswous]

Isn't this already a campaign?

Edit: It is not apparently.

Edited August 5 by datiswous

[kalinovka]

A couple of years ago I discovered William Steele's series. 5 missions pack seem to be finished. And is a thing in memory of Grayman, his heritage. Why not to inlude this pack into official distribution of TDM ?

Edited July 26 by kalinovka

[datiswous]

Well it would've finished at mission 7 I think, but 6 and 7 were never released.

[chakkman]

4 hours ago, kalinovka said:

A couple of years ago I discovered William Steele's series. 5 mission pack seem to be finished. And is a thing in memory of Grayman, his heritage. Why not to inlude this pack into official distribution of TDM ?

Well, as far as I know, it was never meant to be an "official" TDM campaign. Otherwise you could ask the same about any other FM author's campaign.

But, where is the problem with subsequently playing the missions?

[chakkman]

The only thing ever meant as an official campaign was the Crucible of Omen thing, I think, and, unfortunately, it was shelved after one mission.

Edited July 26 by chakkman

[kalinovka]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

Well it would've finished at mission 7 I think, but 6 and 7 were never released.

They are still available in thir personal topics here. But I suppose in next 5-7 years files will disappear from cloud services.

It would be great if somebody finishes that work. But now it looks almost impossible.

[datiswous]

1 hour ago, kalinovka said:

It would be great if somebody finishes that work. But now it looks almost impossible

No, because grayman didn't want 6 and 7 to be finished ever. Officially mission 5 is the last mission.

Edited July 26 by datiswous

[kalinovka]

5 hours ago, chakkman said:

Well, as far as I know, it was never meant to be an "official" TDM campaign. Otherwise you could ask the same about any other FM author's campaign.

But, where is the problem with subsequently playing the missions?

Some people told me they had been expecting to find a real campaing ithe the game after downloading a distributive.

But there were only 3 basic missions and thats all. Users are too lazy today to download something and to chhose was it worth playing. And quality from mission to mission varies greatly.

[chakkman]

8 minutes ago, kalinovka said:

Some people told me they had been expecting to find a real campaing ithe the game after downloading a distributive.

Yes, but, I don't think it's a good idea to just pick a random campaign and make it official.

Especially considering that I think grayman's missions are good, but can't compete with the crème de la crème of missions out there. No offense intended.

Edited July 26 by chakkman

[OrbWeaver]

A hypothetical system to allow the team to recommend or promote certain missions, without making them "official", might be a reasonable way to help new users. Or even allow the best missions to be voted for by players and given some kind of rating in the in-game downloader (although that requires server infrastructure to receive and count the votes).

[chakkman]

In the meantime, there is this: https://www.thiefguild.com/fanmissions/?advanced_search=&series=&collection=&table=&page=&works=&work_lists=&sort_by=best&search=&games=5&released_from=all&released_to=all&genre=all&original_games=fms