[Mod] Sound Polish

[BoilerDunce]

A more sober analysis of my variables...

I try to imagine what the player character looks like with my numbers.

Its very Pink Panther crossed with a shinobi. 

It's almost a blooper of this mod.

[Taffingtaffer]

4 hours ago, snatcher said:

@Taffingtaffer please remove my parameters from the autocommands.cfg and make yours the default. You lead this initiative.

Perhaps at some point you want to spice up your mod or have complimentary mods? Have a look to @SeriousToni's New Footstep sounds v3 for different sound-sets.

You're right, I copied your spoiler without thinking and didn't notice your movement speed values were TDM's.
Upload updated with better organized presets  and my personal headbob values added to reduce motion sickness. I'm keeping BoilerDunce's footstep rate & movement speed and your footstep rate values, just to offer different options.

As for complementary mods... I should actually check out how many FMs use custom footsteps to include FM-specific versions in the mod.
I feel like author custom additions are underestimated and discussions get bogged down in TDM-core talks. Missions make this game, after all. That's why I mentioned Kingsal's (and by extension, Amadeus') running speed increase; they also increase the bow pulling speed. Not sure if they came before or after you. 

I've already grabbed "Sir Talbot's Collateral" files, which come from the Volta series, for a future optional addon so we can use them in all FMs.
I knew about SeriousToni footsteps. Besides the water ones, which sound great, I'm not too convinced on the rest showed in the video. Didn't many make it to TDM, anyway? Their name appears a lot in TDM-core sound shader files.
I'll take a look at the whole pack, however.

Edited August 20, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[sullium]

I think default TDM's standing walk in particular is a bit off. The quick step rate feels unnatural and also seems to make it worse for sneaking then I would expect, especially considering the visibility trade-off for standing vs crouching.

The rest of the footstep rates and the movement speeds in general feel okay to me in default TDM. Not that you shouldn't experiment to improve them, just adding my two cents on that part of the discussion (I haven't tried the mod yet).

[Taffingtaffer]

@snatcher I went ahead and tuned the water footsteps from SeriousToni included in your modpack. See the attachment (mind the filenames, I removed the preceding "mod_"). I also feel water_run04.ogg doesn't blend well with the other three.
How can we go with this? Core player footsteps are done in my view; you could include a small mod to maintain compatibility with your Core Essentials mod, but I don't know how do you set modded file orders.

Before I get into NPCs (which will take a while, unless any of you want to help me playing FMs), I'd like to fix the damned inconsistent jump volume on my end: if you don't remember, I mean that thing with jumping where it sounds more or less quiet depending on your speed, but AIs always hear the running jump propagation.
I've looked over tdm_player_thief.def but I don't see anything about jumping and speed modifiers.

tdm_sfx_movement_footsteps_player.sndshd

Edited August 20, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

9 minutes ago, Taffingtaffer said:

How can we go with this? Core player footsteps are done in my view; you could include a small mod to maintain compatibility with your Core Essentials mod, but I don't know how do you set modded file orders.

When it comes to pk4, filenames and definitions, the last in the queue wins.

My pk4 begin with "x_" so that potential "y_" and "z_" pk4 can take preference. I suppose modders will tend to use "z_" and while nothing of this is unofficially official that's the idea. I dream of the day we have so many mods that we all are upset and a "Modders Unite!" initiative is born to set the chaos straight 

I suggest you use "z_" in your pk4 to make sure it wins.

When it comes to filenames and definitions I either keep the original filename and definition names (if a mod a lot of that file) or create a new file (selective modding) but keep the original definition names so that other mods can overwrite them.

In summary, if you pk4 is the last in the queue and you keep core filenames and/or definition names you will win.

[snatcher]

2 hours ago, Taffingtaffer said:

As for complementary mods... I should actually check out how many FMs use custom footsteps to include FM-specific versions in the mod.
I feel like author custom additions are underestimated and discussions get bogged down in TDM-core talks. Missions make this game, after all. [...]

My opinion on this is that innovations in missions are very welcome. New sounds, in example, can make a mission feel fresh; and new sounds can even become a trademark of a mapper, or the trademark of a series of interrelated missions by the same or different authors. The problem I see is when mappers start borrowing innovations "simply because". I mean, certain elements don't change a mission in any way, and the additions become more of a preference with no context that ends up forced on everybody. At this point I'd rather have these new sounds in an optional mod format, so that I can make use of them or not.

[wesp5]

Once this is finished, the core developers should take a look to see if this can be included into the main game.

Edited August 20, 2025 by wesp5

[snatcher]

3 hours ago, Taffingtaffer said:

I also feel water_run04.ogg doesn't blend well with the other three.

Yeah, and water_walk01.ogg is probably too high-pitched. My intention was not perfection but to replace some defaults with something I could tolerate. Looking forward to your treatment on water sounds!

[Taffingtaffer]

Another update. Player now has its own shader definitions for ALL materials... Also has actual straw footsteps like NPCs instead of reusing grass.
And I included a patch for usage with TDM Modpack.

That should finally do for file organization and the player. Only NPC loudness testing is left as far as core footsteps are concerned.
As for FMs, this is what needs special treatment:

cauldron_v2_2 - Volta II: Cauldron of the Gods // Volta series custom sounds
follow - A Reputation to Uphold // Has two wood_creak files in sfx/movement/materials
gemcutter - Volta III: Gemcutter // Volta series custom sounds
hazard - Hazard Pay // Volta series custom sounds
moongate - Moongate Ruckus // Volta series custom sounds
nobleaffairs - Noble Affairs // Volta series custom sounds
northdale1 - Shadows of Northdale Act 1 // Volta series custom sounds
northdale2 - Shadows of Northdale Act 2 // Volta series custom sounds
prize - Eye on the Prize // Volta series custom sounds
requiem - Requiem // Slightly modified TDM 1.8 stone and tile sounds
snowed_inn - Snowed Inn // Volta series custom sounds
talbot - Sir Talbot's Collateral // Volta series custom sounds

Basically Volta's custom footsteps and a few files for other two missions.

[BoilerDunce]

BoilerDunce Setting B:

pm_walkspeed 75

pm_runmod 2.45
pm_creepmod 0.5
pm_crouchmod 0.45

pm_walkbob 0.22
pm_runbob 0.4
pm_crouchbob 0.11

walkspeed: same as type A

runmod: True sprint, much faster than even Taffingtaffer's. Get yourself hurt kind of running, but not the fastest possible sprint, since without any kind of player momentum, it would feel mechanical and floaty to go any faster in my opinion. Might also be a good future core TDM feature- player inertia / temporary speed loss while making sharp turns. We're not a shinobi after all.
creepmod: Sneakier than Type A
crouchmod: Sneakier and much less athletic than Type A

walkbob: Shorter steps, not as sneaky, just a brisk travelling pace.
runbob: Longer steps, so as to be less Shinobi-like and accommodate less athletic mission protagonists. Also probably sounds like more like the length of stride the playermodel has.
crouchbob: Slower. The only problem is, with the run modifier being so strong, you can crouchwalk comically fast compared to how few steps you take. Which sucks, because running while low is supposed to feel very cool.

I have a feeling there's no squaring that circle. A system that forces compromises, very dastardly of TDM.

I like this setting too much to not voice it though. 

Alternative: Type C

Same as type B, but:

pm_crouchbob 0.17
pm_crouchmod 0.7
pm_creepmod 0.4

This makes crouch-sprinting into more of a jog that looks way too low but is at least within the realm of possibility and only slightly goofy compared to totally goofy. I get the feeling the player character jogging low like this is probably a bit worn down by the years.

This also makes normal crouchwalking about as fast as a very unathletic person can crouchwalk with moderate stealth- its a bit faster than Type B and is more suitable for travel like Type A, but splits the difference, I think. It's not FULL stealth normal crouchwalking like Type B.

Creep-crouchwalking is now also slightly less gut-wrenchingly stealthy than Type B. But still full-stealth like the creep modifier's use should imply. It also clocks out at about the fastest a very unathletic player character would be able to move at full stealth.

Maybe Type C will win the contest for feeling with Type A and B. I will await the answers from the Taffer and Snatcher, since they are in the best position to test them back to back. I'm not the one who can hotswap these.

Including them all is not my intended suggestion. I leave that to your discretion. Type B's crouchsprint really is atrocious. Be on the lookout for a similar problem in your own settings.

[Taffingtaffer]

1 hour ago, BoilerDunce said:

Including them all is not my intended suggestion. I leave that to your discretion. Type B's crouchsprint really is atrocious. Be on the lookout for a similar problem in your own settings.

I noticed crouch-running speed is determined by crouchmod, not runmod. Crouch is basically monolithic: change the crouchmod speed, crouch-running and creeping change accordingly to that. Would be nice to have modular cvars.

I've been thinking... The Sir could really beef up security some. There's an issue with footsteps being shared with the player. The shader definitions are no longer a problem, but for example: walking in the foliage in Briarwood Manor while the guards are stepping on it creates a grating cacophony. All this goes way back: 

I don't have any strong feelings towards guard stone footsteps like Springheel does there (assuming they are the same we use now), but shared footsteps need a solution. TDM seems to have a preference for high-pitched footsteps for the player and low-pitched for guards.
My idea is what New Horizon mentions in the second thread; make a copy of the shared files, put them in the "human" folder and lower their pitch so guards make slightly different sounds. You could argue that will introduce compression from manipulating them, but we really don't have better alternatives unless someone finds different files for guards.
Springheel also brings some clarity to those jumping sounds "for AI".

Quote

There's the "tdm_footstep" series, made by Gold, which the player currently uses. There's also the "human" series, mostly made by Dram, which is what the AI currently use. A few of the human series are T2X sounds, but those are mostly ladder and jump sounds, which AI wouldn't need. So I'm not sure any T2X sounds are actually being used any longer.

I guess I can comment out the jump shaders without worry. I wasn't sure if there was any FM where humans can jump.

I'm having doubts about the tuning of guard footstep volume, however... Do you all think the problem is just that they sound too quiet? Don't you feel they cut off too soon in the distance, or I'm too deep in into this already? 
My TDS playthroughs show me TDM uses very similar noise distances, so it might just be me.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[BoilerDunce]

The footstep volumes (audible, not propagation) I've got on the mind is that walking on wood is so quiet compared to walking on a carpet on wood. Sir Talbot's Collateral is where I'm hearing this at the moment.

EDIT:

And the fact that most wood in missions is perfectly non squeaky wood is a whole other story. 
To my mind wood is supposed to be one of the most difficult materials to sneak on, along with gravel and snow.

Tile being the classic "danger floor" in Thief was really only ever because of Garrett's tapping shoes. I'm sure it would be one of the easiest in something other than clogs. Would our player character wear leather shoes, or what? I don't think that was ever clear. The sounds we have in core are certainly very "tappy" just because of player expectations. Another instance of the tail wagging the dog, I think.

Edited August 21, 2025 by BoilerDunce

[snatcher]

@Taffingtaffer

I checked what your Modpack patch was about and I am puzzled. It's not about the patch but my understanding on how the game handles priorities.

Having:

1. x_footstep_tweaks_v0.4.pk4 > sound > tdm_sfx_movement_footsteps_player.sndshd > tdm_footstep_water_jump_land
2. x_modpack50_core_essentials.pk4 > sound > mod_footsteps_player_water.sndshd > tdm_footstep_water_jump_land

My sounds win. Ok this I expected, but having:

1. x_modpack50_core_essentials.pk4 > sound > mod_footsteps_player_water.sndshd > tdm_footstep_water_jump_land
2. z_footstep_tweaks_v0.4.pk4 > sound > tdm_sfx_movement_footsteps_player.sndshd > tdm_footstep_water_jump_land

My sounds win again!

I truly thought the last definition (regardless of the filename) would win but it seems filenames are taking preference here. Perhaps because I use "mod_" and you use "tdm_"? Perhaps the game gives preference to core filenames? I dunno.

Edited August 21, 2025 by snatcher

[Taffingtaffer]

55 minutes ago, BoilerDunce said:

The footstep volumes (audible, not propagation) I've got on the mind is that walking on wood is so quiet compared to walking on a carpet on wood. Sir Talbot's Collateral is where I'm hearing this at the moment.

And the fact that most wood in missions is perfectly non squeaky wood is a whole other story. 
To my mind wood is supposed to be one of the most difficult materials to sneak on, along with gravel and snow.

Tile being the classic "danger floor" in Thief was really only ever because of Garrett's tapping shoes. I'm sure it would be one of the easiest in something other than clogs. Would our player character wear leather shoes, or what? I don't think that was ever clear. The sounds we have in core are certainly very "tappy" just because of player expectations. Another instance of the tail wagging the dog, I think.

Sir Talbot's Collateral uses the "Volta sound mod", which includes different wood sounds. I haven't touched that yet.

In propagation numbers, wood is only slightly louder than stone. There's the squeak board, the loudest material in TDM, but I dunno how many authors have made use of it.
It's true TDM "went through the motions" when setting propagation values and selecting sounds, but I don't think this mod should go as far as to change the core foundations with so many maps already done.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[Taffingtaffer]

7 minutes ago, snatcher said:

I truly thought the last definition (regardless of the filename) would win but it seems filenames are taking preference here. Perhaps because I use "mod_" and you use "tdm_"? Perhaps the game gives preference to core filenames? I dunno.

The patch isn't included in the main .pk4, I made it as a separate file in the "Patches" folder.
Shader definitions are what matter, not filenames. For example, you still name the water jumping shader "tdm_footstep_water_jump_land". The console shows a warning about all three shaders being already defined by tdm_sfx_movement_footsteps_player.sndshd, but it just loads the last defined shaders like you told me.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

Well... re-review my post. Forget about the patch and rename your mod to z_footstep_tweaks_v0.4.pk4. Who wins?

[Taffingtaffer]

7 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Well... re-review my post. Forget about the patch and rename your mod to z_footstep_tweaks_v0.4.pk4. Who wins?

...Huh. That is weird. It might just be that core files get preference and additional shader files override them.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

Mod-users should understand pk4 "load order" but this is difficult to explain... I will see if I can figure out what's going on.

[Taffingtaffer]

Well, halving the pitch of the player footsteps and assigning those sounds to guards is looking very promising.
I'm considering changing all guard footsteps with lower-pitched modifications of the player's, to be quite honest. (as long as they sound good)
I get what they were going for with the different sound sets, but as we're seeing with shared footsteps, it's more trouble than it's worth.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

You are entering overhaul-modding territory. This may disqualify your changes for core (if you had hope, of course).

[Taffingtaffer]

18 minutes ago, snatcher said:

You are entering overhaul-modding territory. This may disqualify your changes for core (if you had hope, of course).

Didn't really started this hoping for a core merge; it was meant to be a fix for myself, because this aspect annoys me to no end for an otherwise solid game.
And if increasing/lowering core sound pitches is crossing the overhaul line... I'd like to mention that guard and female NPC wood footsteps use the same files, but females sound slightly heavier. 
But I get what you mean. Changing established guard sounds might be too much for the main team...

Edited August 21, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

Mod-users should understand pk4 "load order" but this is difficult to explain... I will see if I can figure out what's going on.

It seems our observations are correct.

(Please note that modded pk4 are considered core pk4 and mission pk4 may be parsed differently).

1. The game reads pk4 in descending order (9-0 / Z-A) and discards duplicate files with the same name.
2. The game ends up with a list of files that get sorted in ascending order (0-9 / A-Z).
3. Definitions get parsed based on this ascending list.

This means that having:

• a.pk4 > sound > a.sndshd
• b.pk4 > sound > b.sndshd

1. b.pk4 gets read first
2. both b.sndshd and a.sndshd end up in the list
3. a.sndshd is parsed first and b.sndshd after

Far from optimal 

[snatcher]

Guys,

I think I am stepping out of player speed and footstep rates commenting / testing.

@Taffingtaffer recently introduced pm_headbob_mod and pm_mantle_roll_mod and @BoilerDunce pm_crouchmod; and while I understand that getting it *right* requires changing more cvars than you probably want I don't see how this can be sold to the general audience safely. I mean, we can have one or many autocommands.cfg but going back to defaults requires careful, manual file management (delete Darkmod.cfg, autocommands.cfg, etc) and the process is too cumbersome.

An in-game mod that comes with some presets, including defaults, can of course be created and I am more than happy to try your final proposals, but until you settle on something I will simply spectate 

[snatcher]

@Taffingtaffer, I am sure you already scouted the whole boards but FYI I maintain a list of mods here that has two additional sound mods that haven't been mentioned here yet.

[Bergante]

On 8/20/2025 at 4:22 PM, sullium said:

I think default TDM's standing walk in particular is a bit off. The quick step rate feels unnatural and also seems to make it worse for sneaking then I would expect, especially considering the visibility trade-off for standing vs crouching.

The rest of the footstep rates and the movement speeds in general feel okay to me in default TDM. Not that you shouldn't experiment to improve them, just adding my two cents on that part of the discussion (I haven't tried the mod yet).

Hi --- @sullium
you gave your 2cents --- here are mine 
You (sullium) is working on a Jump-Train-mission
and a part of the discussion is about movement SPEED
So -- sullium ( and maybe the others invoved in the mod ) 
----- Keep in mind that speed also affects high and wide jumps.
Some missions will have parts within their map - designed to enable or hinder jumps in height or width.
oh -- has been mentioned earlier 

On 8/19/2025 at 4:56 PM, snatcher said:

Increasing speeds changes gameplay so I won't touch those at this moment.

Edited August 21, 2025 by Bergante