[Mod] Sound Polish

[snatcher]

20 hours ago, Taffingtaffer said:

[...] I've been doubting that part where you said the player shaders maxDistance affects propagation. See the wiki on both properties: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Setting_Up_Speakers#minDistance/_s_mindistance
The value reported by tdm_spr_debug stays the same whether it's 30 or 1; it does affect the guard footstep traveling distance for your benefit, [...]

It seems your observations are, once again, correct.

minDistance and maxDistance play a role in audio volume but have no role to play in propagation.

I can see in the source code footsteps propagation follow this path:

1. [Player.cpp] PlayPlayerFootStepSound()
2. [Entity.cpp] PropSoundDirect()
3. [Entity.cpp] PropSoundS()
4. [SndProp.cpp] Propagate()

There's this comment in Propagate():

// Calculate the range, assuming perceived loudness of a sound doubles every 7 dB
// (we want to overestimate a bit.  With the current settings, cutoff for a footstep
// at 50dB is ~15 meters ( ~45 ft )

And then this:

range = pow(2.0f, ((vol0 - m_SndGlobals.MaxRangeCalVol) / 7.0f) ) * m_SndGlobals.MaxRange * s_METERS_TO_DOOM;

So the game is calculating a range based on the (dynamic) sound volume, (static) range values, and a fixed assumption.

MaxRange and MaxRangeCalVol are set in def/tdm_soundprop.def:

"editor_float maxrange" "Range in meters above which sound propagation is not calculated for the calibrated sound volume. NOTE: Values of maxrange 2.2 and cal 30 means a whisper of 30dB SWL gets cutoff after travelling 2.2 [m] (~7ft). maxrange has no bearing on how AI are alerted, just which AI have the potential of hearing the sound; it's just for optimization, although if it's set too low then sounds will be cutoff when the AI should have heard them."
"maxrange" "3"

"editor_float maxrange_cal" "Volume calibration value for MaxRange (see 'maxrange')."
"maxrange_cal" "30"

[Taffingtaffer]

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

It seems your observations are, once again, correct.

minDistance and maxDistance play a role in audio volume but have no role to play in propagation.

Great. I'm leaving player maxDistance properties in, since it doesn't hurt and you never know when you'll need to copy a similar declaration for NPCs. And maybe someday there's multiplayer support for a FM and it comes into play.

Now, concerning mod load order... I've re-read stgatilov explanation several times. I'm doing a quick test with Hazard Pay to see if my mod wins, but no matter how my files are named, the mission files always win. I guess that's what "Recently I ensured that the files from missions take precedence over the core files" is supposed to do.
This limits my ability to make FM patches for the mod, however...

Edited August 25, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

Yeah, mission files always take preference. Two options I can think of:

1. By creating scripts that launch at missions start and try to change sounds on the fly (laborious and it is not guaranteed to work in some cases).
2. By directly placing modded pk4 in fms/thismission/

Considering the recent finding about filename priority the second option needs to be carefully assessed. Should a modded pk4 load first or last? Should my modded filename have a specific name?

[wesp5]

If this ends up in the core game and if Kingsal likes it, he could change his own missions and everything would be fine.

Edited August 25, 2025 by wesp5

[Taffingtaffer]

@kingsal I've uploaded a quick version of my mod with your footsteps inside a "Experimental" folder in the OP link. Let me know what you think. I've had to use the Amplify effect of Tenacity in all of your files with a Peak amplitude of 0.0 dB (without allowing clipping).
Also created a "new" carpet version for the guards by reducing the files' pitch by 20%; might also want one for commoner females with a +20% pitch instead.
If you would rather prefer these modifications to be done with your raw sound files I'll delete the sound files and let you handle it properly. I just uploaded them to show how my shader values would sound.

I've also noticed many of your missions have a player_swim_burst01/02/03.ogg set that sound a lot better than the core files, but the credit is still attributed to STiFU. 

Edited August 25, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[snatcher]

Good things come in good time. The Volta Soundscape Mod is here 

[snatcher]

Dare I ask @Taffingtaffer to review and update @SeriousToni's New Footstep sounds v3 sometime down the road?

Dare I ask @SeriousToni to give his blessing?

[Taffingtaffer]

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

Dare I ask @Taffingtaffer to review and update @SeriousToni's New Footstep sounds v3 sometime down the road?

Dare I ask @SeriousToni to give his blessing?

Guess I will be betraying my own roadmap (not that I had one planned). I'll take my time with this one and make it an addon to load alongside the main mod, instead of putting the whole thing inside like the early Volta pack.
Think I said it before but some of those made it to core, like the whole female folder and the snow footsteps.

[Taffingtaffer]

I'm looking at @Gin Thiefier Sounds, since it's smaller to finish. These are top-notch quality, they should replace core files, in my opinion. Sadly, I can't use the source .wav files because core .sndshd files lookg for .oggs...
I can't make addons like I intended either because if a .sndshd file wins, the shader declarations of that file are always applied. In this case my main mod is hijacking any duplicated shader needed by soundpacks...

[SeriousToni]

@Taffingtaffer@snatcher

Feel free to use the sounds in your own mods / packs if you like. I guess I won't be able to do more sounds or review the current ones in my pack in the near future. I still use them as a personal mod when playing TDM but you're free to surprise me with an updated more quality sound pack!

[Taffingtaffer]

Another modpack uploaded to the "Experimental" folder. @Gin "Thiefier Sounds" are superb; if I hadn't started the mod with the premise of improving all core volume sounds, I would have included them as a replacement from the start.
I created the usual guard and female versions as well.

Regarding the rest of custom sounds: @Ujtudor edits to impact sounds make a lot of sense, and the balanced dirt and metal footsteps seem to sound better than the core files. I think I'll use their footsteps in the main mod; the metal files declipped by my pal JoseJL are unfortunately muffled in comparison... I've asked around in case someone knows of outright better, free-licensed metal (and water) footsteps.

Toni's pack is an honest effort, but personally I don't find many footsteps exciting. Not to say there aren't good ones; TDM uses all of Toni's guard and female sounds, and the player's snow sounds. Player wood sounds also seem nice for the squeak board material, specially the walk-creep files.
The water files need editing, though. This also happens with the core metal files to a less extent, but Toni's water footsteps have channel imbalance; the right speaker sounds louder than the left speaker.
I'll look into both core metal files and Toni's water files.

Edited August 27, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[BoilerDunce]

Further thoughts on what i've read so far:

The game is balanced for wood to be pretty sneakable but if all wood was squeaky as in Toni's mod sneaking on wood would be worse than tile. Making squeaky boards an intentional separate element to be included by choice seems both very prescient and realistic to me on the part of TDM. 

Thiefier Sounds seems like its good in the ways that matter to you, but to me, I have a different ideal for the sound design, I'm just no good at making mods. My ideal, not that you're interested, is that sounds would be of a quieter quality- it should sound like the player is wearing appropriately soft shoes for the job and stepping gingerly instead of (what sounds to me) almost marching as in both vanilla and the mods I know of.

I think a sudden tap only makes sense if the player is moving at a brisk pace like in my speed values or running. It's not enough to just play footstep sounds at a different speed- different speeds (Run, walk, creep) reflect different intentions, different ways the player character would want to be stepping. If only their sounds were more distinct.

Another thing: At least in the version the demos of these footstep mods take place in, footsteps appear to be playing on a single channel, muting the previous step sound file when a new one begins. This kind of ruins the built in reverb of the sounds we have so far heard and is not a natural sound. Even if a sound contained a subtle squeak or something shortly after a step, it could be silenced by other step sounds if the two steps happen close enough together.



 

[Taffingtaffer]

59 minutes ago, BoilerDunce said:

The game is balanced for wood to be pretty sneakable but if all wood was squeaky as in Toni's mod sneaking on wood would be worse than tile. Making squeaky boards an intentional separate element to be included by choice seems both very prescient and realistic to me on the part of TDM.

I know that, that's why I mentioned squeaky board specifically.
 

59 minutes ago, BoilerDunce said:

Thiefier Sounds seems like its good in the ways that matter to you, but to me, I have a different ideal for the sound design, I'm just no good at making mods. My ideal, not that you're interested, is that sounds would be of a quieter quality- it should sound like the player is wearing appropriately soft shoes for the job and stepping gingerly instead of (what sounds to me) almost marching as in both vanilla and the mods I know of.

I think a sudden tap only makes sense if the player is moving at a brisk pace like in my speed values or running. It's not enough to just play footstep sounds at a different speed- different speeds (Run, walk, creep) reflect different intentions, different ways the player character would want to be stepping. If only their sounds were more distinct.

I certainly differ with the realism angle. Yes, of course Garrett or Corbin wouldn't wear boots with soles for tap dance realistically, but in a game with little to no UI elements you want to make very clear how dangerous surfaces are through sound. If you have to stretch reality a bit for gameplay purposes, so be it; it's a videogame. Not even the lightgem can be taken at face value in certain dark spots that aren't that dark, but we eat it up for fun.

It's true that materials could have their own subsets of files depending on the walking speed, but finding good, clean free-licensed sounds with speed and stance variations isn't easy, and creating them less so. Doing this mod using what we have in the community is being hard enough, I'd rather not put more on my plate.

59 minutes ago, BoilerDunce said:

Another thing: At least in the version the demos of these footstep mods take place in, footsteps appear to be playing on a single channel, muting the previous step sound file when a new one begins. This kind of ruins the built in reverb of the sounds we have so far heard and is not a natural sound. Even if a sound contained a subtle squeak or something shortly after a step, it could be silenced by other step sounds if the two steps happen close enough together.

Can you be more specific? Do you mean some files are in mono?

[BoilerDunce]

11 minutes ago, Taffingtaffer said:

Doing this mod using what we have in the community is being hard enough, I'd rather not put more on my plate.

Don't look for any judgment from me

Can you be more specific? Do you mean some files are in mono?

What I mean is that all of the step sounds sound like they are sharing their space in the game's audio engine, and cannot play over each other. This leads to the step sound being instantly killed if another step sound plays before another has ended, which can be heard as the pre-recorded reverb of the step being suddenly silenced. 

I only mention it because it might interest you (or a third person) decides it seems appealing to work on.

[Taffingtaffer]

7 minutes ago, BoilerDunce said:

What I mean is that all of the step sounds sound like they are sharing their space in the game's audio engine, and cannot play over each other. This leads to the step sound being instantly killed if another step sound plays before another has ended, which can be heard as the pre-recorded reverb of the step being suddenly silenced. 

Right, it's also very noticeable when you come to a halt depending on the file it was playing. Seems like an engine limitation for now. Sound direction isn't as solid as Dark Engine either, even with HRTF on.

[Taffingtaffer]

Version 0.9.1 uploaded.
Forget what I said about Toni's water files being unbalanced, my mind is kind of in the gutter with all this modding. They are fine, but I did leave out the second jump file because the cut-off is very obvious when you immediately run/walk, as BoilerDunce pointed out.

With this, I'll let the mod breathe for real. I haven't heard all of Ujtudor's non-footstep files in context, so don't hesitate to call me out for including the whole thing on a heartbeat. 

Edited August 27, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[BoilerDunce]

While you're letting the mod breathe, I've got a thread somewhere about HRTF. I really think something's messing it up in stereo. Sound is just jumping all over the place extremely choppily while I look around. It's making more noise than two skeletons dancing on a tin roof.

[SeriousToni]

On 8/27/2025 at 3:35 PM, BoilerDunce said:

On 8/27/2025 at 3:16 PM, Taffingtaffer said:

Doing this mod using what we have in the community is being hard enough, I'd rather not put more on my plate.

Don't look for any judgment from me

Can you be more specific? Do you mean some files are in mono?

What I mean is that all of the step sounds sound like they are sharing their space in the game's audio engine, and cannot play over each other. This leads to the step sound being instantly killed if another step sound plays before another has ended, which can be heard as the pre-recorded reverb of the step being suddenly silenced. 

I only mention it because it might interest you (or a third person) decides it seems appealing to work on.

That is true. I remember having to cut and fade out all single sound files after a certain amount of milliseconds because the game can only play one footsteps each time and cuts off the former when starting to play a new one. So make sure to keep the sounds short enough to avoid the cut offs. 

[Bergante]

mmmm--- seems you are near to finish your work 
i wonder why @Wolfmond isn´t participate in here 
he offered his work on field recording ---
think it could be a nice job for him to make&give new sounds ?!
(he last visited in June - so try to contact him PM if you are interestted )

[kingsal]

On 8/25/2025 at 10:44 AM, Taffingtaffer said:

@kingsal I've uploaded a quick version of my mod with your footsteps inside a "Experimental" folder in the OP link. Let me know what you think. I've had to use the Amplify effect of Tenacity in all of your files with a Peak amplitude of 0.0 dB (without allowing clipping).

Awesome! It might be some time before I can properly review them but if people like them, I'm cool with them being modified. I made them nearly 7 years ago and don't have any of the reaper settings I used. 

I also made the compress / decompress and underwater sounds in volta. I honestly don't remember how, but water and microphones where involved 

[Taffingtaffer]

2 hours ago, kingsal said:

Awesome! It might be some time before I can properly review them but if people like them, I'm cool with them being modified. I made them nearly 7 years ago and don't have any of the reaper settings I used. 

I also made the compress / decompress and underwater sounds in volta. I honestly don't remember how, but water and microphones where involved 

Great. I've included both your footsteps version and Gin's inside the main .zip, so don't look for that folder anymore. ^^"

Thanks for mentioning those sounds! Player .def file has a comment stating that the game needs specific sounds for entering, surfacing and being underwater. It was playing some lame "subtle splash" file for the first two, so I'll include your 3 files in all versions of the mod.
I'm also thinking nobles having distinct footsteps can't hurt, either. Yours deserve to be included generally, too.

Edited August 29, 2025 by Taffingtaffer

[Taffingtaffer]

Another revision, motivated by kingsal's comment. Did some file editing while I was at it. Now swimming feels cool, at last.
Doing the squeakboard sounds, I had the tiniest urge to try and look for Twig sounds, but seeing how unkempt NPC sound definitions are (male NPCs don't play squeakboard despite having sound shaders, the same for females and broken glass...), I'll leave those endeavors in more capable hands.

[BoilerDunce]

the autocommands aren't being enacted for me

[snatcher]

On 8/17/2025 at 7:39 PM, Taffingtaffer said:

--v0.9.2--

Nice!

I am familiar with Volta footsteps and the pack sounds great 

I was not familiar with Gin sounds but I find some footstep sets very pleasant 

The Taffingtaffer pack is fantastic but there are a couple of squeakboard sounds that bother me a little. What is your opinion on these two, a little over the top / out of place squeaky sounds, @Taffingtaffer ?

[Taffingtaffer]

On 9/25/2025 at 7:55 PM, snatcher said:

The Taffingtaffer pack is fantastic but there are a couple of squeakboard sounds that bother me a little. What is your opinion on these two, a little over the top / out of place squeaky sounds, @Taffingtaffer ?

I'm guessing you refer to the one that actually squeaks and the heavy, crunchy one. Can't remember why I was convinced by them, perhaps I thought it added variety or felt the need to get the point across of really loud wood.
I don't know any FM that actually uses it so couldn't test how annoying it sounds in proper context. After getting some distance from the mod, it does feel like they could get old fast.

I haven't done any "in-field" testing yet. I'm on the look-out for beasts, undead and other fauna used in TDM. I don't think I've ever heard spiders walk or make idle sounds not that I'm eager to alert them either. I'm used to get unnerved by their hissing in Thief, I take it as a clear warning.

Going back to sound propagation for a bit, Daft Mugi had a WIP to reduce the base values in tdm_propagated_sounds.def.
I also took a brief look at the blackjack hit sounds: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6641

The issue speaks for itself. It doesn't make sense that hitting metal and wood has the same loudness. This is absolutely undercooked, to the point that you can't even use modifiers because it disables the shader for the blackjack.

I've attached Daft Mugi's WIP (with default running and jump values, because I think they were fine) and a rather messy fix for the blackjack and sword problem.

The edited footstep propagation values are intended for the "Forgiving" hearing difficulty level.
They are an improvement over core values, imo. Running is punished in close quarters; crouch-running gives you an edge but can't be abused, which leads you to walking, and walking can slightly alert AIs when you go for a purse, so creeping gets a real use, even if for a brief moment.

 

 

tdm_propagated_sounds.def tdm_weapon_blackjack.def tdm_weapon_shortsword.def

Edited October 2, 2025 by Taffingtaffer