Dropping a key

[BoilerDunce]

Why are the vanilla key entities provided with the editor not droppable? There are tons of missions where I can't leave the keys behind.

For those of us who aspire to be gentlemanly professional pilferers, this is most annoying.

I'm guessing its also baked into the missions by now and can't be retroactively changed by the stroke of the TDM team's pen. Or might I be lucky to be wrong?

[datiswous]

1 hour ago, BoilerDunce said:

Why are the vanilla key entities provided with the editor not droppable?

Nothing is profided by the editor. The editor just reads TDM core, or fm data.

Hmm, indeed:

So a mission author has to override it on a per key basis. Which also means if you change the default setting, gameplay might change, although personally I think it's not a problematic change.

I wonder if one could add a def file with this code:

atdm:keys_base
{
	"inv_droppable"				"1"     // can be dropped
}

Then would that override the setting in def atdm: keys_base .

Yeah it's strange "0" is the default. You would think players should know what they're doing when they drop keys.

Edited September 20 by datiswous

[datiswous]

I think it might be possible to make a plugin that changes this for all missions.

Edited September 20 by datiswous

[wesp5]

I'll try to do this in my Unofficial Patch... ... and it seems to work fine. I updated my ModDB download!

Edited September 20 by wesp5

[BoilerDunce]

14 hours ago, wesp5 said:

I'll try to do this in my Unofficial Patch... ... and it seems to work fine. I updated my ModDB download!

Wonderful, wonderful.

[datiswous]

I think there could be missions with scripts, triggers or objectives that depend on the player having the key though.

[chakkman]

I don't quite understand the topic, to be honest. Why would you leave keys behind?

[datiswous]

To de-clutter your inventory I would guess. Also some players like the idea of keeping the room in it's original state after opening a door. So then the key has to be placed in it's original position, if it was not on an ai.

Edited September 21 by datiswous

[chakkman]

What if you need the key again? Do you write down where you left it then?

Seems like a bad idea to me.

[BoilerDunce]

Freedom of choice defines the feeling of a game like this. It's too videogamey to have a game rule tell me I simply can't drop a key unless its literally under some kind of curse.

When your only remaining objective is to leave, you will have no more use for them. 

It also helps to stage your actions as though there never was a break-in, and they might have been committed by someone internal to the building. This makes them more likely to overlook things they can do to make future break-ins more difficult, in case you think you might have to go back to that place on another job some day, especially if its a place where intriguing things happen.

Even if you anticipated the location becoming an important place later on, you would not want to steal all the keys as this would let them know to change all the locks and not just the ones they think are exclusively in compromised hands. If you brought some clay with you, you could create imprints of the more common keys and to copy them for an easier exploration later. It's just a way to hope you can reduce the chance they'll change them all and make your next visit just as difficult.

[chakkman]

There are a couple of issues with that though:

- You never know if a key doesn't open multiple doors. So, even if your OCD sets in, and you place the key where you found it, after you opened a door, it could be that you end up in front of another locked door, you might or might not realize you need the dropped key to open it. And, you have to remember where the key was, which, with multiple keys, can be a challenge.

- You can't attach keys to A.I.'s again, when they wore them, so, you can't leave everything as it was anyway.

- "When your only objective is to leave," it won't matter if you still have the keys in your inventory or not.

Edited September 21 by chakkman

[datiswous]

Also, sometimes ai lock the door behind, so if you drop the key you might get stuck somewhere.

Personally I have no issue with players running into these situations if they really want to drop the key. Let them be free in making that mistake.

[Bergante]

Players should be free to decide if they care about keep or drop a key ! 
it´s a part of playstyle !!! 
Ghosters and especially Supreme ones try to leave no trace of their presences -
even if it doesn´t affect the mission objectives .
so if they pick it from a belt - they want to leave it as if the person lost it on their way .
and there are also missions where after a while you have up to 20 or more in your inventory 
if npc close doors the player has to find the key before (or there is an other way in) so no problem .
multiple doors --- okay ---- you may leave/drop them later !

in addition it could be nice ! to be able to shut  locks again like you open them - with lockpicks !!!

by the way - this question isn´t only for keys - Each inventory item should be possible to be laid down. 
some times i really would be happy to give a coin to a beggar - instead of search for food 

[kingsal]

Its up the author if a key or any item is droppable. The default of making keys not droppable makes sense.  Not only can players accidently leave a mission critical key (or any key-like item) behind, they can toss  it somewhere inaccessible and now they will be stuck. 

It would be risky to make every item in your dark mod setup droppable. 
 

[chakkman]

Especially considering most of the reasoning behind making them droppable is rather environmental/atmospherical, not a necessity of any kind.

Edited September 22 by chakkman

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, kingsal said:

It would be risky to make every item in your dark mod setup droppable. 

While this is certainly true, saves exist :)!

[Bergante]

2 hours ago, kingsal said:

Its up the author if a key or any item is droppable. The default of making keys not droppable makes sense.  Not only can players accidently leave a mission critical key (or any key-like item) behind, they can toss  it somewhere inaccessible and now they will be stuck. 

It would be risky to make every item in your dark mod setup droppable. 
 

as you said : Yes --- it´s up to the author  !
so  - critical items may be not droppable
( just like in missions where you have to bring skulls or similarly to to a trigger place )

I personally lean more towards BoilerDunce :

On 9/21/2025 at 3:16 PM, BoilerDunce said:

Freedom of choice defines the feeling of a game like this. It's too videogamey to have a game rule tell me I simply can't drop a key unless its literally under some kind of curse.

what is the risk of making an Arrow droppable - or a coin  or anything 
in several missions you start searching for lockpicks or blackjack

and yes Chakkman - it is atmospherical
every author as he likes    
every player as he likes ( everyone is free to keep anything he collects ) 
as wesp5 says : saves are save (mostly) 

[thebigh]

How would you make a coin droppable once you've grabbed it and it gets added to your loot count?

[BoilerDunce]

Right, right, I know that its "up to the author", my only bone to pick is that the default is that it's not droppable.
In other words, every time the author really has no opinion or forgot about it, I have these cursed undroppable keys, and it's in a high number of the missions as a result of being the default. 

My only contention is, it's better off droppable by default. And since wesp5 got on making it a reality, my business is done here!

[wesp5]

4 hours ago, BoilerDunce said:

And since wesp5 got on making it a reality, my business is done here!

If you don't want to use my patch just to get this, PM me and I can explain what file you need. Also it would be very easy to make all player tools droppable as well, but I don't really see any sense in that!

Edited September 23 by wesp5

[kingsal]

20 hours ago, wesp5 said:

While this is certainly true, saves exist :)!

Right on , what you put into your patch is up to you but you should know this will allow players to get into an unwinnable state without them knowing it. I've seen this happen more than once. 

[STRUNK]

I think we should be able to just blow up doors with mines or other explosives, and windows too!! XD

I can see the wish for droppeble keys (even if it could cause getting stuck), for some people like to add their own layer of rules/gameplay on top of the basic and optional reqirements for finishing the mission; get all money, get all secrets, get all objectives, get a perfect stealth score.
I salute these who like the TDM missions that much that they want to "supreme ghost" them, and I guess there could even be an extra difficulty level for it in new missions, or even existing missions after some tinkering.

That said, I get why the default should be that a key is not dropable, and @wesp5 already seems to have fulfilled @BoilerDunce wishes as an optional function: Forums are a greatl!

Also "Supreme ghosting" missions can be made with DarkRadiant, like any other mission, and the forum is here to help you on your way where needed : )

Edited September 23 by STRUNK

[thebigh]

Another reason for having droppable keys is a holdover from the T1/T2 days. In those games cycling through inventory to get to the key you want was a huge pain in the butt. Making keys you've finished with droppable to declutter the inventory makes sense. Easier in TDM where you can just rapid-fire the K key to cycle through keys. Indeed, a lot of fan missions for T1/T2 actually permanently unlock one-use doors and remove their key from the inventory. From memory Shadows of the Metal Age does that for some keys.

[Wellingtoncrab]

I think mappers in general are a lot more aware of the supreme ghosting playstyle now. I see things like objects not being droppable come up in beta testing for example. When I released my first mission I was obviously aware of the concept of "ghosting" in that it meant beating a mission undetected, but I had no idea how mature the ruleset was until @Klatremushelped me a lot with understanding it.

My first reaction was like "whoa I better go back and change a bunch of stuff", and he actually said you need be careful about going too far with that.

Because supreme ghosters don't actually want mappers to completely alter the design of their finished missions to enable supreme ghosting or to make it easier. Because part of the fun and challenge is coming up with creative solutions around that design, and then sharing these methods with others.

Which leads to some very interesting stuff which is really in the imsim spirit, like carrying a note around in your inventory for the entire mission to use it as a makeshift cushion:

Which is just to say, if the design of the mission enforces that keys are not droppable, and you really don't want to leave a trace, then I got the sense the supreme ghoster thing to do is to first see if there is another way. 

Probably a lot of the times there isn't, but I imagine there are some pretty interesting solutions you won't really see if just blanket mod the game.

But it's your time and your dime, brother. You gotta do what you gotta do if it is really hampering your enjoyment.

[datiswous]

12 hours ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

see if there is another way

Can you give an example of what someone could do in such situations? It seems to me the only way around is mod it if you really want to drop the key.