Use loot to save the game

[SeriousToni]

So I just read in a post about the black parade over at ttlg that someone was using a custom script to create a little challenge. 

You can only save your game for every 200 loot you gather.

As many missions struggle to give loot a valuable sense of existence because it is only used as a mission goal (while not being part of a campaign where it would carry over), I personally found this a really good and refreshing idea.

So, would this be possible in the dark mod too, either as a customizable game option or as a custom script j in a fan mission ?

What are your thoughts on this idea in general ? 

[datiswous]

I think it has already been talked about in some of the save restrictions discussions a while ago.

[chakkman]

I always have a hard time understanding why someone would need such a synthetic/automatic save system, when we already have the option to save whenever and wherever we want. If you want to save for every 200 loot you pick up, you can already do so. There's a loot objective for every mission, so you can plan whenever you want to save.

There is a mission with a save room on high difficulty in TDM, and I absolutely hate it. These kind of automatic save schemes shouldn't be forced on the player, he should be free to save whenever he wants to save, not when the FM author intended him to save. That's the opposite of freedom in a game, and, in my opinion, the opposite of how an immersive sim or however you want to call it, should operate.

[datiswous]

13 hours ago, SeriousToni said:

So, would this be possible in the dark mod too, either as a customizable game option or as a custom script j in a fan mission ?

I think it's technically possible. You can probably make the saving restricted and then have a script count loot and then with every 200 loot make one save possible. So it could be done via a plugin.

 

 

Edited November 21 by datiswous

[datiswous]

3 hours ago, chakkman said:

I always have a hard time understanding why someone would need such a synthetic/automatic save system, when we already have the option to save whenever and wherever we want. If you want to save for every 200 loot you pick up, you can already do so. There's a loot objective for every mission, so you can plan whenever you want to save.

I have a hard time understand why you (and some others) choke over it so much. If people want a save restriction, let them have it.

I do think that using one of the 3 difficulty slots for that restriction is a poor choice. There are better ways.

[datiswous]

Look it already excists in some form:

On 6/5/2024 at 9:08 PM, RedEmber said:

After finding ~60% of the map's loot earn 1 free save, for emergencies, it does not create a save room but allows saving freely once.

 

Edited November 21 by datiswous

[datiswous]

Other topics about save restrictions:

• Restricting saves in creative ways
• mod: Save At Will
• Why there should be restrictions on quicksaves
• Can every1 pls update his FM with a saveroom possibility on hardmode like in the Kingsals latest FM?
• POLL: Possibility for mappers to create missions where you cannot save manually, but use checkpoints or other systems instead.

[chakkman]

25 minutes ago, datiswous said:

I have a hard time understand why you (and some others) choke over it so much. If people want a save restriction, let them have it.

It's already possible, out of the box. You can even save whenever and wherever you want. How great is that?

If the FM author, or the developers of the mod do it for you, then it's a game sided limitation/restriction, and takes away freedom to play how you want. Which IMO is an essential feature of immersive sims like The Dark Mod, and takes away from what the gameplay should be in such games.

I really hope neither FM authors nor the developers decide to implement saving restrictions for higher difficulties, or even build it in the game. It's a horrible idea. Like forced ghosting in missions.

Edited November 21 by chakkman

[datiswous]

It doesn't work like that. You're only really restricted when you are.

I think it will never be forced onto us except by mission authors, but I think (if they do) it should be implemented by them in missions as an optional extra, so you can play the full game with or without except for that element.

Some ideas for implementation by mission authors:

1. Make it the 3th difficulty setting but the 2th and 3th difficulties are the same except for the save restriction.
2. Add the option as a checkbox in the briefing.

You are already restricted in other ways. For example a no-kill objective, or a loot objective, or even objectives themself. I would really like to see a mission with less restriction. Like a sandbox. But it's harder to do.

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

You are already restricted in other ways. For example a no-kill objective, or a loot objective, or even objectives themself.

But these are in-game restrictions, they are imposed on the player character, not the player. Why not force a specific low brightness with no way for the player to adjust it? Why not force the player to play at a low resolution? Why not force the player to not use a mouse? Do you see the difference?

Edited November 21 by wesp5

[chakkman]

@datiswous No-kill objectives absolutely make sense in terms of the setting. No client wants a bloodbath on his hand, and bring much more heat on him than the actual heist.

Loot objective are a base principle of the game, as you are a thief.

What exactly do limited saves bring to the setting/gameplay, instead of being a restriction a player can pose on himself, in any game? And, again, it can already be done with manual saves. Asking for the game to pose the restriction is like asking to hold your hand.

But, as you say, I'm pretty positive that it won't come anyway, as it makes no sense. A single mission for TDM has a save room, on the highest difficulty. Which is bad enough, when you're used to playing on the highest difficulty level, and don't want that kind of save system... The "solution" is to play on medium or easy, which obviously also changes all other objectives to a lower level (which is bad).

I only can hope that this doesn't come into fashion, same with ghosting objectives, which only make sense in very rare cases as well (like in the "Casing the joint" mission in Thief II).

Especially with the already much higher difficulty of TDM compared to the original Thief games (A.I. hears and sees MUCH better in TDM, and the blackjacking is quite a hit & miss), limited saves would be a huge PITA for me.

Edited November 21 by chakkman

[snatcher]

2 hours ago, chakkman said:

@datiswous No-kill objectives absolutely make sense in terms of the setting. No client wants a bloodbath on his hand, and bring much more heat on him than the actual heist.

If No-kills (or No-kos) objectives make sense in terms of the setting it then must apply to all difficulties, otherwise it doesn't actually make sense in terms of the setting and proves the client doesn't really care whether there is a bloodbath or twenty unconscious citizens in the morning, no?

[snatcher]

I think implementing the tools to reward champions, instead of punishing the whole player base, is the more elegant solution.

How about turning restrictions into achievements?

[thebigh]

If you've got $199 loot and then pick up a trophy worth $250, would that entitle you to two saves? 

[kingsal]

The save game discussion is like a traveling circus. It rolls through town every year with the same old clowns. 

@SeriousToniThe loot save idea is interesting. Do you know how it works in Black Parade? Maybe the script checks the players loot score every so often to see if it incremented by X amount and then award a save. Or in TDM you could append the frob actions to force a check on every loot pickup.

It might be weird to just save every 200 loot like thebigh mentioned. Might be better to gift the player a save item,  similar to the savior schnapps in Kingdom Come. 

Interesting idea, not impossible to implement but definitely a little involved. 

[chakkman]

1 hour ago, snatcher said:

If No-kills (or No-kos) objectives make sense in terms of the setting it then must apply to all difficulties, otherwise it doesn't actually make sense in terms of the setting and proves the client doesn't really care whether there is a bloodbath or twenty unconscious citizens in the morning, no?

True.

[snatcher]

12 minutes ago, kingsal said:

The save game discussion is like a traveling circus. It rolls through town every year with the same old clowns. 

True.

It looks like a signal but of what?

[SeriousToni]

Thanks everyone for your passionate feedback so far. The topic of save restrictions really brings out the “travelling circus” haha! Even with maybe a clown act or two! I appreciate all the perspectives! @kingsal

Just to clarify, the idea was always meant as an optional feature. It was never something forced onto any player. The intent is not to punish or restrict, but to offer map authors and players another tool to curb quicksave and quickload habits if they choose to. So customization would be key part of this, whether you set the loot threshold, turn it off, or adjust it per mission. 

I completely hear those who feel any kind of restriction undermines player freedom in immersive games. That is why I believe this should be extra and opt-in only, not tied to standard difficulty or forced on anyone who does not want it.

On the other hand, I think the proposal from @snatcher about rewarding restraint, such as stealth score bonuses for minimal saving and loading, is an alternative brilliant way to turn the concept into something encouraging rather than restrictive. That could motivate players to play differently without feeling confined. 

Anyways.. Let us keep the discussion creative and constructive. For next year’s circus, maybe we can add a small demo to show the crowd

PS: Thanks a lot @datiswous for taking the time to search the forums again. I somehow wasn't aware that this topic came up already a few times, and the forum search itself often is not working so well. So thank you!

[SeriousToni]

31 minutes ago, kingsal said:

The loot save idea is interesting. Do you know how it works in Black Parade? 

There is a post over on TTLG: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153145 
Just re-checked, it was also just "an idea" and the scripts he posted mainly resolve around the enemy movement speed. I was so hooked up on that idea that I didn't remember this in the first place, sorry!

Edited November 21 by SeriousToni

[snatcher]

For what is worth, the first time I play a new (to me) mission I play without mods and in the difficulty setting I find more appealing. I save and load as much as I need or want and, if I am allowed, I may KO or kill depending on the mood of the day. I truly, but comfortably, immerse myself in the world the author created. And I love it.

I any second play-through though, saving is strictly forbidden over here unless I need to close the session for whatever reason. But to succeed in my endeavor I must make use of all the tools, mods and tricks at my disposal. I either win or fail or die. And boy, The Dark Mod shines when you only have one single chance.

[wesp5]

11 hours ago, SeriousToni said:

On the other hand, I think the proposal from @snatcher about rewarding restraint, such as stealth score bonuses for minimal saving and loading, is an alternative brilliant way to turn the concept into something encouraging rather than restrictive.

That is basically already in the game. If you watch your stealth score, the number of times you saved and loaded are already listed! Maybe some trophies could be added to make this more rewarding, like a Ghost trophy, or a No-Save trophy or similar?

Edited November 22 by wesp5

[datiswous]

On 11/21/2025 at 9:25 PM, kingsal said:

The loot save idea is interesting. Do you know how it works in Black Parade? Maybe the script checks the players loot score every so often to see if it incremented by X amount and then award a save. Or in TDM you could append the frob actions to force a check on every loot pickup.

It might be weird to just save every 200 loot like thebigh mentioned. Might be better to gift the player a save item,  similar to the savior schnapps in Kingdom Come. 

The plugin I mentioned earlier, (you commented in that thread) it's script gifts a save to use after 60% loot total is gained. Could be modified to happen on 30%, 60%, 90% for example.

Spoiler

float checkIfCustom(string cvarStr)
{
	entity saveadm;

		saveadm = sys.getNextEntity(cvarStr,"atdm:savegame_admin",saveadm);
		
		if ( saveadm == $null_entity )
		{
			return(0.0);
		}
		else
		{
			return(1.0);
		}
}

vector saveRoomPos;

void spawn_saveRoomGraphic()
{
	vector saveRoomGraphicPos = saveRoomPos;

 	sys.setSpawnArg("origin", saveRoomGraphicPos);
	sys.setSpawnArg("notpushable", 1);
	entity saveRoomGraphic 	= sys.spawn("atdm:prop_single_card");
}

float firstSave = 0;
float freeSave = 0;
float currSaves = 0;
float lootTo;

void lootExtraSave()
{
	lootTo = 0;

	entity lootC;
	do
	{
		lootC = sys.getNextEntity("inv_loot_value","",lootC);
		if ( lootC != $null_entity ) 
		{
			float lootV = sys.strToFloat(lootC.getKey("inv_loot_value"));
			lootTo += lootV;
		}
	} while (lootC);

	sys.println("lootTo before: " + lootTo);
	lootTo = lootTo * 0.6;
	sys.println("lootTo after: " + lootTo);

	do
	{
		sys.wait(0.1);

		float playerLoot = $player1.getLootAmount(LOOT_TOTAL);

		if (playerLoot >= lootTo)
		{
			freeSave += 1;
			$player1.setGuiString(GUI_HUD,"MessageText","Gained +1 free save.");
			$player1.callGui(GUI_HUD,"DisplayMessage");
			$player1.playStartSound();
		}
	} while (freeSave <= 0);
}

void saveR()
{
	saveRoomPos = '0 0 0';
	thread lootExtraSave();

	do
	{
		sys.wait(0.25);

		float saveUp;
		$player1.setSavePermissions(0);

		sys.println("free: " + freeSave);

		if(saveRoomPos == '0 0 0')
		{
			if (currSaves > freeSave)
			{
				freeSave = 0;
				saveRoomPos = $player1.getOrigin();
				spawn_saveRoomGraphic();
			}
		}
		else
		{
			float saveDistance = $player1.distanceToPoint(saveRoomPos);

			if (saveDistance <= 130)
			{
				//Limit Y variance?
				$player1.setSavePermissions(0);
			}
			else
			{
				if (freeSave > 0)
				{
					$player1.setSavePermissions(0);
					saveUp = sys.strToFloat(sys.getMissionStatistic("totalSaves"));
					if(saveUp > currSaves)
					{
						freeSave -= 1;
					}
				}
				else
				{
					$player1.setSavePermissions(2);
				}
			}
		}
		currSaves = sys.strToFloat(sys.getMissionStatistic("totalSaves"));
	} while (true);
}