Wishlist for TDM (2.13->2.14)

[Bergante]

Hello 
don´t know where else to post this

A.) the ingame downloader offers to list the missions sorted by release date !
      would be nice to have this option also for the ingame choose to play side

B.) Climbing has changed for some time now.
      In 2.10, it was possible to quickly switch between the crouching and standing positions while climbing.
      Since 2.11, this no longer works. 
      (when you stand upright and want to squat – you slide down the rope/net or similar)
      there were surely good reasons to reconfigure something for the squat position
      don't remember who did it – but it certainly wasn't their intention to have this effect
I would love to get back the possibility to switch between crouch and tall - while climbing 
(Perhaps only part of the ascent is in the shadow – you can rest there in a smaller, visible pose –
take a quick look – and then return to the shadow until it's time to move on.)

C.)Just to add another idea – more of a funny extra to arrows – a real knockout arrow
     not a gas dart, rather with a rubber ball at the tip – which then works like a blackjack and can be found again

Edit !  P.S. : New 
D.) would be nice to have the mission name in the stats screen !
                                   

 

Edited January 23 by Bergante

[demagogue]

The crouch to slide down a rope or ladder was something to team debated. It was most definitely an intentional feature added to get quickly down a rope or ladder without just falling (using the crouch button, which is the logical one, as opposed to another key for it). 

I don't recall all the details, but I think the idea was being crouched didn't change the state of the player on the ladder, and I guess they didn't worry about the player coming off of it not crouched since you can immediately crouch when you get off. Is that your main worry, coming off not crouched when you want to be?

I don't want to express any strong opinion about it without play testing the two options to compare them in practice. 

[Bergante]

So it's meant for a quick slide!?  Okay, got it!
(for emergencies – a bit faster than walking – but thieves usually do it slow and quiet )
But at the end of the rope, you'll fall immediately (no stop at the end of the rope)
This can hurt if the end of the rope is high above the ground
(need to test if another click is needed or if the button can simply be released-tested ! )
and it might also not be possible to do it quietly (I haven't used it since it appeared)
(It doesn't seem so! The undead in HazardPay got up immediately and were alerted when I did it very close to the ground)
And no – I am not afraid of being in a squat when letting go of the rope
(staying in a squat but making noises doesn't make sense to me).
I want to maintain the position and be able to switch between squatting and standing normally.
For example, it can be helpful to take a quick look at the top edge or to quickly hide.
or to hide when only a small part is in the shade,
or to pick things up from the ground without leaving the rope.
At the moment, you can still climb up and down in a crouched position –
but only if you entered the rope in this pose.(and stay this way)
A good test area is the silo in HazardPay – carry a crate down and test the difference in version 2.10 and late
 

8 hours ago, demagogue said:

I don't want to express any strong opinion about it without play testing the two options to compare them in practice. 

Thank you for the response – it would be nice to find a solution for both options:
different key mappings in the game (<>/y is near by) or the choice in the settings – the players' preferred style.

Edited January 23 by Bergante
Visual appearance for datiswous ;-)

[wesp5]

I really like the idea C) with the recoverable knock out arrow :)!

[datiswous]

@Bergante why do you post in this ugly white text blocks? Are you copy pasting from Word or something? Don't forget to use Ctrl+SHIFT+V then.

[Bergante]

@datiswous sorry
does it look that way for you -  (what if you change your forum design ?
it shows to me a real Black ( like now -just a soft grey shadow that´s hard to see)
and yes this time i used translator (copy paste) to be sure for some word meaning
normaly i rewrite it in my words - and time ago it doesn´t copy with Background (don´t no why now)

2 hours ago, datiswous said:

Don't forget to use Ctrl+SHIFT+V then.

what does this do ? --- obsolet -->   nur text einfügen 

puh  : think it´s repaired now (had to find an untouched place to copypaste in the old post)

Edited January 23 by Bergante

[jaxa]

You're good now.

[datiswous]

1 hour ago, Bergante said:

does it look that way for you -  (what if you change your forum design ?

I use the official forum's dark theme v2

[I.C.H.I.]

14 hours ago, Bergante said:

C.)Just to add another idea – more of a funny extra to arrows – a real knockout arrow
     not a gas dart, rather with a rubber ball at the tip – which then works like a blackjack and can be found again

IMO this will render gas arrows and also (!) blackjack useless and the game will become too easy, which is literally cheating. Why then use the rest of the tools if you can just pew-pew every guard from a safe distance? I like the gas arrows exactly for the reason that they are limited and thus very valuable, which adds an element of strategy.

 

What I'd like to see in TDM is some refinement for inventory to prevent unnecessary clutter. Like having a key-chain that would hold all keys together and separate tab for the notes you find.

Edited January 23 by I.C.H.I.

[demagogue]

A blackjack-style KO arrow might be interesting if it follows the limits of blackjacking, as in it only works when it hits a specific radius on the back of the head. So there would still be some skill involved in hitting a smallish area from a distance, and if it doesn't hit it but somewhere else or it makes a noise nearby, all you've done is alerted and angered them. 

[wesp5]

3 hours ago, I.C.H.I. said:

Like having a key-chain that would hold all keys together and separate tab for the notes you find.

Didn't ObstTorte code something like a key chain years ago? Why was it never used?

[New Horizon]

3 hours ago, I.C.H.I. said:

IMO this will render gas arrows and also (!) blackjack useless and the game will become too easy, which is literally cheating. Why then use the rest of the tools if you can just pew-pew every guard from a safe distance? I like the gas arrows exactly for the reason that they are limited and thus very valuable, which adds an element of strategy.

 

What I'd like to see in TDM is some refinement for inventory to prevent unnecessary clutter. Like having a key-chain that would hold all keys together and separate tab for the notes you find.

Wouldn't that depend on what tools the fan mission author grants?  If they include the reusable knock out arrow, then perhaps there is no blackjack provided in the mission...which then makes it tricky because you have to find that knock out arrow in order to re-use it. That could be challenging and you might end up losing it completely.  Lots of gameplay options to be had there.

[chakkman]

4 hours ago, I.C.H.I. said:

IMO this will render gas arrows and also (!) blackjack useless and the game will become too easy, which is literally cheating.

Gas arrows are practically useless anyway, as they have a very narrow radius, and can mostly only be used to knock a single guard out anyway.

Additionally, it's so rare in missions, even the ones with lots of elite guards (which also should be very, very rare, and, their armor should really only be worn by Captains of the guard, or something).

That said, I think knockout arrows would be too powerful, retrievable or not. Not that I wouldn't like them, but...  

Edited January 23 by chakkman

[chakkman]

3 hours ago, demagogue said:

A blackjack-style KO arrow might be interesting if it follows the limits of blackjacking, as in it only works when it hits a specific radius on the back of the head. 

You mean they should be random hit and miss like the blackjack? Ew.  

Edited January 23 by chakkman

[I.C.H.I.]

31 minutes ago, New Horizon said:

If they include the reusable knock out arrow, then perhaps there is no blackjack provided in the mission...which then makes it tricky because you have to find that knock out arrow in order to re-use it.

People will use them from a short distance, this is pretty much the same as using blackjack but having very long arms LOL.

[snatcher]

19 hours ago, Bergante said:

B.) Climbing has changed for some time now.
      In 2.10, it was possible to quickly switch between the crouching and standing positions while climbing.
      Since 2.11, this no longer works. 
      (when you stand upright and want to squat – you slide down the rope/net or similar)
      there were surely good reasons to reconfigure something for the squat position
      don't remember who did it – but it certainly wasn't their intention to have this effect
I would love to get back the possibility to switch between crouch and tall - while climbing 
(Perhaps only part of the ascent is in the shadow – you can rest there in a smaller, visible pose –
take a quick look – and then return to the shadow until it's time to move on.)

Key press = toggle crouch

Long press = slide down

[Bergante]

21 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Key press = toggle crouch

Long press = slide down

For release: must be done!!! Not doing it at the moment. Thanks – it will be a good way to use both options.

For the arrow :  (prepared an hour ago)

A controversy
 @I.C.H.I.
Yes you may be right for a standard equipment
when player is close to an opponent , the guard is lonely or standing still .
But don´t you think , in such cases one could just go and Blackjack them .
When you´r near and in their back – it´s easy to knock out 1-2-3 in a row , without making them suspicious . Nearly the same with gas-arrow – you can take out more than one – and even additional may come to help and will also fall asleep
(yes sometimes Gas- have a very little area and a short time )

what´s the difference between a KO-arrow and a Broad-head ------ dead or alive !
A Broad-head one can use from any position (back-side-front)
a KO should /could have the same rules like a blackjack . 
And there are players which go around – blackjack everyone before they go for the objectives

I want to let you know – I am usual a non lethal supreme ghoster .
The idea came to me in a moment when a situation was very difficult -
so I took a brake – started a save – and went like Rambo - knockout every one - shot them to death
just to get off my frustration . 
After a while I calmed down and said to myself : that´s not me – i´d better had a Ko- arrow  to practise my shooting ability : try to get them at distance – when they are moving – a group (oh without making them suspicious will be hard) – when they walk the same path (so run to retrieve the arrow and hide the body before the next one will arrive )
Imagen  a mission with a wall covered market-Place , on every side SEWN a guard on a tower watching for random times – so if you want to move across a lit area - beforehand one has to control 4 directions (and wait……) if you will maybe discovered . How nice it would be to take them out one by one .

For sure it shouldn't be a standard arrow (like the gas-) there have been others invented for special uses ( the dark-one and his brother ) the mission author has/will decide if it fits to his design (or perhaps design a mission for such an use )
to me it would be fun to have some missions with them !

don´t get me wrong – i´ll accept your opinion 
and if you will still think so when they perhaps exist – you will not use them 
like I do with water- , moss- , fire- …  only those retrievable like rope- and broad-head

Edited January 23 by Bergante

[I.C.H.I.]

I think the enemy AI already has the disadvantage of being just a bunch of code that can't compete with humans in the way of thinking and adding the KO arrow will only make this disadvantage even bigger. I's like having a good puzzle but adding auto-solve button in case if someone doesn't know how to deal with it.

[datiswous]

5 hours ago, chakkman said:

Gas arrows are practically useless anyway, as they have a very narrow radius

Indeed. In combination with their price at least.

 

I think a temporary knockout would be interesting, but it's a bit like a flashbomb. I really think somebody should look into the existing options and tweak them more so they become more useful before adding more. A flash arrow is also interesting.

See also: 

 

[wesp5]

I see two solutions: 1) The knock-out arrow could replace another type of arrow as otherwise no old mission would have it. This could break all missions which rely on the arrow type that is replaced. 2) As in Snatcher's modpack, there could be a mechanism to turn a normal arrow into a knock-out arrow. This could make many missions too easy.

A tweaky solution could be that a normal arrow knocks out any NPC with a helmet if it hits the helmet from behind, but it is destroyed in that hit. There already is some kind of head-shot detection in the TDM, maybe this could be modified to make this work? No need for a new arrow type, but need for really good aim otherwise no knock-out!

Edited January 24 by wesp5

[chakkman]

Talking about the flashbomb: Could it be tweaked so that it creates an alert state which still makes guards KO'able? In the original Thief games, the flashbomb was THE means of choice for me to deal with multiple enemies. E.g. in Lord Bafford's manor, when you just came up from the basement, there is a room full of servants which you an't enter unless you knock them out, and, a flashbombs blinds them all, and you can blackjack them all one by one.

I understand that this is pretty powerful, BUT, flashbombs are very limited in the amount you are provided with in the missions anyway.

I really thinkl flashbombs are practically useless right now, as all they do is kind of working like a noisemaker arrow.

If you think of a real life comparison, flashbangs are used to clear out rooms by special police forces. They aren't just for distraction.

Oh, and flashbombs also were WAY more effective against the undead in the original games as well.

Edited January 24 by chakkman

[nightmare]

Make illegible fonts legible.

[chakkman]

39 minutes ago, nightmare said:

Make illegible fonts legible.

Thankfully, nowadays, most FM authors use fonts which are legible.

I know what you mean though... that one font...

[wesp5]

6 hours ago, chakkman said:

Talking about the flashbomb: Could it be tweaked so that it creates an alert state which still makes guards KO'able?

I believe this is possible in my Unofficial Patch.

[STiFU]

9 hours ago, chakkman said:

Talking about the flashbomb: Could it be tweaked so that it creates an alert state which still makes guards KO'able?

It will come in 2.14 beta.