Ingame Characters

[Domarius]

While it shouldn't be very likely to kill a guard in one on one combat, I would preffer it if combat could be used primarily to buy you time or open a window for escaping, rather than be so difficult that it's nothing more than a prolonged death animation.

[oDDity]

Yes, so I thnk blocks should be more important than attacking strokes. Let the player learn that they can block quite successfully, but if they try to attack they'll get killed.

We could at least make it so there is an appropriate block for each attack a guard may make, and if you don't choose the correct block you'll get hit, thereby putting a bit of skill into it, since you won't have much time to make up your mind which block to use as the guard makes his swing.

The guards for their part should be able to not only successfully block any player attack, but also make an instant counterattack to punish the player for having a go. THis counter should come before the player is able to get another block in after hs own attack swing.

THe problem with this is that it's always open to explotation. You can never make the AI smarter than the player, and players will use any and every dirty trick in the book to try and kill the guards.

[New Horizon]

Well, depends on how we intend to implement additional blocks. For simplicity, one block would do. If I recall correctly, the jump button became the block button. I personally don't see the need for multiple blocks if we're not going to focuss on the combat. Left and Right swipes...a block..overhead swing, the basics. Should be enough really.

[Ishtvan]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to add that much more on top of T2, just trying to get up to the level of T2 pretty much.

 

If I'm not mistaken, you could execute different blocks by holding block and sort've moving your mouse opposite the direction of the AI's attack, and it would kind've choose an appropriate block for you. So if they slashed at you from your right to your left, you'd hold block and jerk the mouse from left to right. I swear I once did a sabre parry #1 in Thief (the parry where you flip your sword point down and block an attack to the lower left quadrant of your body, if you're right handed).

 

As for the AI, I think having them do a parry + riposte is a good idea, maybe we can make use of animation blending to have it look right when they make an attack after blocking. It's hard to make general statements like they should always hit the player with their counterattack though. It seems like it will be hard to actually balance the combat.

[Domarius]

We should be able to calculate mathematically that if the player does enough successfull blocks... there will be some window of opportunity opening. Does Ishtvan's flat-footedness idea have anything to do with that?

 

Here's my idea:

For every sucessful block, the time it takes to recover accumulates, but that returns to normal over time. So there is this variable "recovery" that says how long the guard has to wait before attacking after being blocked. Recovery starts at 0.3 seconds, but when you block an attack, 0.1 is added. However, 0.1 is removed every second of time that passes. So if you keep blocking frequently, you'll increase this time faster than it's depleating and eventually enough time will accumulate for you to turn and run.

 

And what about multiple enemies? Should we do it so that when you work out the math, more than one guard is going to be practically impossible, or should the thief be able to be like jackie chan and hold off 3 guys before it starts getting impossible?

[oDDity]

No way, he isn't D'Artagnan, he's a thief with a small sword against well trained men with longswords.

[Domarius]

Fair enough. What about my blocking idea though?

[god_is_my_goldfish]

I think it would work fine, though the timing might need some tweaking after playtesting.

[New Horizon]

I'm not really fond of the recovery thing in this type of game. If we were focussing more on sword combat, then yes...it would likely make more sense. As it stands, I think we should likely keep it simple. Block...get the hell out of there. LOL

 

Back to the ingame characters though...

[oDDity]

If we're goingt o put in a complex blocking system, then I prefer a visual system of a block for every type of attack a guard may make, and that matematical system domarius cooked up can be used to reward the player of a successon of good blocks..

 

I 'd like to see four attack types by gurds, with four choices of block to counter them.

You have to use the correct block to counter the incoming attack or you still suffer say, 70% damage from the attack.

THe player's whole gameplan should be about blocking and not attacking, so he should be punished for making attacking strokes by being hit by counterattacks from guards - and of course, the guards do a lot more damage then the player, so he won't last long by being agressive.

The player should be on the definsive the whole time, or die.

This is a good gameplay representation of how the player is supposed to be an inferior swordsman to the guards.

[New Horizon]

If we're goingt o put in  a complex blocking system,  then I prefer a visual system of a block for every type of attack a guard may make, and that matematical system domarius cooked up can be used to reward the player of a successon of good blocks..

 

It's actually not all that complex a concept. It uses focus or frob points as in the original games to determine which way the block should be executed. If we wanted to we could have.

 

Upper: Left, Right, Middle

Center: Left, Right, Middle

Lower : Left, Right, Middle

 

In actual fact, you only have 3 blocks but since you can move your mouse up and down...it allows the player to block higher and lower attacks. I don't think it's something we want to make too exact though.

 

I 'd like to see four attack types by gurds, with four choices of block to counter them.

You have to use the correct block to counter the incoming attack or you still suffer say, 70% damage from the attack.

THe player's whole gameplan should be about blocking and not attacking, so he should be punished for making attacking strokes by being hit by counterattacks from guards - and of course, the guards do a lot more damage then the player, so he won't last long by being agressive.

  The player should be on the definsive the whole time, or die.

This is a good gameplay representation of how the player is supposed to be an inferior swordsman to the guards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I support the guards having multiple attack types but there is really no need to complicate the blocking system by having to choose the exact block. A block won't automatically protect the player with the proposed thief style system as the player must learn how to approximate how hi or low they need to block. This will require some skill. I'm not sure how you imagined the blocks being administered but if it's along the same lines, then I think we have a good compromise and a few more variations than four.

[Domarius]

Hm my post didn't go through? Wierd.

 

I was saying we should move the discussion here

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...t=0entry37402

[New Horizon]

Hm my post didn't go through?  Wierd.

 

I was saying we should move the discussion here

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...t=0entry37402

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, I moved the posts over there but it seems to have trickled back here again.

[Domarius]

I'm not fond of hijacked threads, especially when I have to track down the appropriate threads for the documentation.

[sparhawk]

THis isn't a fighting game though, you're not supposed to be fighting - in fact, it's the exact oppositie of what you're supposed to be doing.

 

This is a movie. And fighting works much better in a movie, because it is more action.

[oDDity]

Fuck that. We're not showing this demo off as a fighting game like the talentless wankers at Ion Storm did with T3, just because it looks kewl.

THis game is about stealth, and that's what we should show in the video.

[sparhawk]

The problem is. Stealth is all nice and good, but a video that shows a Thief standing in a corner is not exactly exciting.

[Springheel]

Why are we talking about adding combat to this movie? We've barely even started *discussing* how combat should work, let alone done any work that we could show off in a movie.

[New Horizon]

We're not going to have time to get the combat portion ready for this vid. All I asked for was to be able to show off the player arm drawing a sword...that's it, nice and simple. There's no need for interaction with the AI in that respect as the viewers imagination will no doubt have some ideas in their head about that already.

 

And cool your jets oDD. Even if we could drop in a quick snippet of some sword fighting, do you think it's going to take up the entire video? Oh yes...I'm going to record 2 full minutes of hacking the AI to death with a sword. Hardly! We all know it's a stealth game and that the player is not some blood thirsty killer. Two seconds of the player blocking an AI's swing hardly equates to a bloody combat game, nor does it make us Ion Storm. Sweet Jesus. Makes it sound like you're under the impression some of us think we're making Quake here.

[Corth]

heh, I'd do it just inspite of oDD

 

I'd like to have the houseguard ready for this, but unfortunately I don't think that'll be possible. I've asked Ishtvan for some help and he agreed to it, so it wont be too too much longer

[oDDity]

I'm under the impression that some of you want to suck up to the doom 3 fans, and we all know what they like. This vid will be published on various doom mod hangouts I'm sure...and you want them to see the bit of blood spurting action, which is their only desire.

[Springheel]

I think the only reason a player's sword was mentioned was because lots of TDS players want to see a thief with a sword again instead of a dagger. Giving them a glimpse of it will put us one step closer to that ticker tape parade we're looking for.

[New Horizon]

I'm under the impression that some of you want to suck up to the doom 3 fans, and we all know what they like. This vid will be published on various doom mod hangouts I'm sure...and you want them to see the bit of blood spurting action, which is their only desire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I said I want to show the player pulling out the sword and only for the very reason Springheel mentioned. The fans who want to see a sword back in the game. I never mentioned a blood bath...and why would we be catering to Doom 3 fans? Sometimes oDD, you're as Illogical as you are Irish. I swear. I hold your level of intellect in high regard but sometimes you say the silliest things.

 

Now if we can get the sword in place for this movie GREAT, if not....can we kindly move forward and get stuff done?

[oDDity]

I'm the one doing most of the 'stuff' and I'm quite capable of doing it and posting here, so don't worry about that.

I'm not talking about the sword, I'm talking about in general when I say that some people want this game not just to appeal to hardcore stealth fans but also to doom fans and gamers in general. That means focusing more on combat and less on stealth, because that's what those people expect.

Sparhawk for one, if you want me to name names, he's the one who started in this thread about combat being more exciting and leet to put in the video, instead of boring old stealth gamplay, and I'm syaing that when Ion released videos of T3 which showed a lot of combat and no stealth, that most people were annoyed.

Ion had a good excuse - they were selling to xbox owners, but we are not.

[New Horizon]

I'm the one doing most of the 'stuff' and I'm quite capable of doing it and posting here, so don't worry about that.

 

Yes, I know that and I appreciate it too.

 

 

I'm not talking about the sword, I'm talking about in general when I say that some people want this game not just to appeal to hardcore stealth fans but also to doom fans and gamers in general. That means focusing more on combat and less on stealth, because that's what those people expect.

Sparhawk for one, if you want me to name names, he's the one who started in this thread about combat being more exciting and leet to put in the video, instead of boring old stealth gamplay, and I'm syaing that when Ion released videos of T3 which showed a lot of combat and no stealth, that most people were annoyed.

Ion had a good excuse - they were selling to xbox owners, but we are not.

 

This video has no bearing on "the game" aspect of things. This is the toolset not the campaign. I treat them as two separate entities and they are.

 

"The Dark Mod", is the toolset...the campaign is...well, I don't know what that is since it's nowhere near ready for any sort of promotion yet. We're looking at a year or two down the road before we start promoting that.

 

We're promoting the toolset. A toolset to create Thief Style fan missions. This is closer to Thief than our future campaign...therefore, we can display the familiar combat features if we wish, but no more than Thief 1 and 2. If you're worried about the campaign becoming Thief: The Doom Project...don't, it's not going to happen.

 

We shouldn't still be confusing the toolset and the campaign after a year.