Chloroform And Blackjacks

[Maximius]

I think I may have asked this before but Ill try again. The problem with AIs and ladders is that the player can use them to confuse the guards, climb halfway up and jump off, lead all the guards up a ladder then run away, leaving them searching fruitlessly while you plunder three rooms over.

 

So what about if, in every five or ten guards, only one or two could climb ladders? A fully armored guard is not going to be climbing much anyway, one fall and you will shatter bones with 40 lbs of armor on. But in every group of five, for example, there could be one guard who is lightly armored and who will climb any ladder the Thief is seen scaling. It wont matter if the THief jumps off or not, because the guard is not just chasing the Thief, he is going to guard teh room at the top of the ladder.

 

So the Thief is pursued by a gang of guards. He scoots up a ladder. One of the guards breaks off and climbs after him. The Thief hops down and runs off, the other four pursue him but the climbing guard continues to the top and then patrols the room up there. Maybe he wont even come down for the rest of the mission, he will stay up there to insure that the Thief wont try to escape his fellow guards by climbing up there. Essentially, the guards realize that they cant follow the Thief up ladders so one of them stations himself up there to preclude the Thief from hiding easily.

 

I realize this doesnt address all of teh problems with ladder climbing but perhaps its a start? Of course this doesnt say anything about pagans, townsfolk, and servants who have nothing to stop them from climbing wherever they like. I do think that AIs NOT climbing ladders detracts from the atmosphere, nothing was sillier in T1/T2 then hiding from an ape-beast , who can obviously climb like devils, by climbing a ladder.

[New Horizon]

If AI could climb ladders, I would hope that they know the layout of their place of employment well enough to send one guy up the ladder, two stay grounded in case the thief jumps off the ladder and the other two go off in another direction to head the thief off if possible.

[Maximius]

In fact, most security forces operate in such a way. I know because I was part of the security taskforce in a nuclear missile unit in Germany years ago. (Hey Spar, how far are you from Giessen? I was stationed in Herborn Seelbach back in 90/91, 45minutes from Frankfurt A.M. north up the autobahn towards Dortmund.)

 

Essentially, security forces have assigned posts, and when the alert is tripped, you go to your position and stay put until told otherwise. Security forces operate under such protocols so that leaders know where they have assets at any given time as well as covering escapes and vulnerable spots.

[bob_arctor]

I like Maximus' idea.

[Vadrosaul]

I like Maximus' idea.

 

I like Mamimius <- no woot smilie? what gives??

[Ishtvan]

It would be nice if we could give them some squad tactics. What happens though if they see the thief and set up to block offf and clear one area, then there is a sighting of the thief in another area? Do they have a squad leader that decides whether they should go help out in the other area, or maintain watch where they currently are? We know there's only one thief in the map (usually), but they don't know that. For all they know they could be being attacked by multiple enemies, so they would have to be sure the area they first saw the thief in was clear before moving on to the next threat, I guess.

[FishFace]

First off, I like the idea of a weapon-drawn guard dropping his weapon when KOd - it's realistic, difficult and it's an incentive for you to not alert guards.

 

Second off, I suck at designing AI, never mind implementing. I have no comment.

[Maximius]

It would be nice if we could give them some squad tactics. What happens though if they see the thief and set up to block offf and clear one area, then there is a sighting of the thief in another area? Do they have a squad leader that decides whether they should go help out in the other area, or maintain watch where they currently are? We know there's only one thief in the map (usually), but they don't know that. For all they know they could be being attacked by multiple enemies, so they would have to be sure the area they first saw the thief in was clear before moving on to the next threat, I guess.

 

 

Ishtvan, here are some ideas, I think I posted these months ago on TTLG but Ill repeat em.

 

The AI guards should have three distinct ranks. The rank of an AI tells you a bit about how they will react. First of all are the troops, the privates. Your standard guards, they do all the things that you would expect guards to do. But things get more difficult when a sergeant is around.

 

Sergeants are a lot more experienced than their junior guards. They are only fooled by noisemaker arrows part of the time. When a Thief is spotted, they send privates to guard key positions, call for lanterns and torches to be relit, and they send out an alarm that gets neighboring guards on alert for a period of time. Doused torches, Moss arrows and puddles of water make them really suspicious, they know the tools of the Thief's trade. If a sergeant is present in a fight, the troops wont cut and run like they do sometimes when they are getting beat. Sergeants are harder to KO or kill than troops, they have good instincts and have a lot more battle experience.

 

Now things get really tough when a captain is present. The captain is highly trained, she is never fooled by noisemakers, she knows what doused torches, moss piles, and puddles of water mean off the bat. Flashbombs and gas arrows only effect her randomly, her reflexes shut her eyes and stop her breath at the slightest indication. When she is alerted, the whole joint goes on alert and doesnt come down, no one wants to be seen slouching on the job when she is on patrol. Torches get relit, lanterns get called in along with reinforcements, and the hunting doesnt stop. Maybe she can even have a spell or two, just simple stuff like a healing spell or a light spell or better yet she has the authority to call a mage in to help with the hunt. Captain are really tough to KO or kill, for the same reasons as the sergeant.

 

You get the idea, different grades of AIs make for a much more varied and tricky environment. So the troops would have much different search and patrol patterns when alone vs. when a superior officer is around. Not exactly squad tactics but sort of.

[oDDity]

We already have different levels of guards, there are three private type guards for example - house guards, professional guards and elite gurds. Obviously they have varying abilities.

There will be no females though, the dark mod unverse is not an equal opportunities employer, a women's place is divided between the bedroom and the kitchen.

Women have no interest in making game mods so they can't cry becasue they don't get equal rights in them.

[Dram]

omfglol, he's the anti-pr dude

[Maximius]

He's PR anti-matter!

[oDDity]

It's nothing to do with PR. Including women gurds and mercenaies is nothign but political correctness.

Some people argued that my suggestion of incuding guns 'just felt too modern' for the dark mod universe, even though guns have been around for 700 years

Well, having females in the City Watch and as private security guards feels too modern for me. I associate female equality with the 20th century.

[sparhawk]

Maybe as private security guards, but as city wathc they would be acceptable to me.

[oDDity]

What's the difference. If it's a unverse where females can join the city watch, it's also a universe where they can become private guards.

THat would be totally inconsistent.

[Maximius]

It's nothing to do with PR. Including women gurds and mercenaies is nothign but political correctness.

Some people argued that my suggestion of incuding guns 'just felt too modern' for the dark mod universe, even though guns have been around for 700 years

Well, having females in the City Watch and as private security guards feels too modern for me. I associate female equality with the 20th century.

 

I tend to agree, although I liked the efforts at diversity that T1/2 made, it was a little PC overall. I want a little more grit, that means sexism, bigotry, racism, all the wonderful stuff that makes being human such a treat. I dont want those groups excluded, I just want a more realistic world to play around in. Which means conflict, exploitation, good old meaness.

[oDDity]

Im not opposed to having some strong female roles in the game, I don't mind female mages, or stong females in the pagan tribes, or female thieves, but there should be no females in the more official organisations like the city watch, the mercenaries/ex-army, the inventors guild (almost laughable, show me a women who's ever invented anything) - and certainly none in the Builders faction.

[SneaksieDave]

In a slightly less rigid sense, I think I tend to agree. If a woman was going to be in a guard type of role, she would have to be one of those Big-Bertha-type bruisers who actually could put down rowdies in the streets or wrestle drunks and muggers. The girl who was big enough to be on your football team when you were in highschool. Obviously it would be rare. The only other way it would be reasonable to have 125 lb female guards taking on 230 lb dock workers and thugs would be via the use of some kind of sophisticated martial arts and that opens another whole can of worms - is that really wanted, and warranted (and why, for political correctness?), how will it be animated, is it silly overall given the reasons, etc. I think that type of thing is better as an exception, than the rule, e.g:

 

"Did you hear? East Quarter district hired a woman! A BLOODY WOMAN!"

"What!? What the hell for? Did they need someone to fix buttons or launder knickers, or has that backwards git of a sheriff finally gone completely mad? Or maybe he's giving it to the woman's daughter?"

"How should I know? Maybe we should rename ol' East Quarter district. Hey, how about the Menses District?"

"Augh! Bite your tongue, swine! You'll turn my stomach."

 

Realistically, women were frequently discriminated against in most "important" and laborious roles in the less-civilized past, so it does lend itself to credibility. Like it or not, the physical abilities of men and women are different, and biased toward men in 99% of cases. Maternal roles like a Holy Mother or pagan Wise Woman (who would obviously kick major ass with her majicks) or such are fully reasonable, though.

[FishFace]

It would work either way - if there are female guards, it's something different, something that adds depth and draws you in. If there are none, then as long as there's the discrimination, it also adds depth, event though it's not quite so different...

 

With that out of the way, I like the idea of guard ranks - it makes for much more realistic customisation of difficulty for the FM author. In some circumstances, you want the Thief to be able to sneak around unnoticed - moss patches acting like in T1/2/3. Seargants and captains mean you can have more realism, without restrictions.

[bob_arctor]

Guards' ranks sound good.

 

Women: I don't see why there can't be women police, seeing as it's not our universe, but then it has to be consistant and seem to work.

 

The guards of Thief 1 were so dark and blocky if it wasn't for the voice could've been anything.

[FishFace]

oDDity has a point as regards women - we can't just put women in guard positions for the sake of it, there has to be a valid reason for doing it. The fact that it looks ever-so PC is not a point in its favour.

[Ishtvan]

There's already been a huge multi-page debate thread about the female guard/mercenary issue.

 

I think we decided we'd put them in the toolset, but it's up to FM authors whether they want to use them in their particular campaign.