Crystal Arrows

[oDDity]

If someone comes up wth a better lightgem model, then it should be used.

You can't stick your head in the sand. No one has asked you to do any extra work, so you've got nothing to cry about.

[sparhawk]

Well, Spring and NH are right that we shouldn't continously change everything. But the arrows are not yet modeled afaik and the major reason for sticking to the crystals was not because everybody liked them, but because we already had the basic arrow. If Odd says that he doesn't spend so much time on it and also enjoys making something different then just characters all the time, where is the problem? Don't you want cool looking arrows?

[New Horizon]

Well, Spring and NH are right that we shouldn't continously change everything. But the arrows are not yet modeled afaik and the major reason for sticking to the crystals was not because everybody liked them, but because we already had the basic arrow. If Odd says that he doesn't spend so much time on it and also enjoys making something different then just characters all the time, where is the problem? Don't you want cool looking arrows?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We do have the model for the crystal arrows. I believe it's on the ftp, might have even made it to CVS...not sure. It kept things fairly simple. Just a different skin and/or particle effect for each arrow to make it different. Sure, the model would be boring but there are plenty of ways to dress it up in doom 3.

 

We should definately keep a few crystal arrows in there...like water and moss.

[Springheel]

But the arrows are not yet modeled afaik

 

GAH!!

 

I've only said THREE TIMES in this thread that they're already modeled. This entire thread started because I posted looking for someone to texture them BECAUSE they're already modelled.

 

If we start redoing everything that's already done, it will take us six years to finish instead of three. If you really want to come up with a new arrow concept, Oddity, the noise arrow still needs to be done, not to mention lots of other player equipment.

[sparhawk]

What I meant was, that they are not completed individually. We only have the basic model and retexture it depending on their type. I like the crystal arrow for the water and maybe the gas and fire, but for the others I don't think it hurts if we have differnt models, more appropriate to their function.

[oDDity]

Lol, the moss, gas, fire and water arrows are the only crystal ones, so that doens't leave much room for change. The onyl obne left is the noisemaker.

[New Horizon]

GAH!!

 

I've only said THREE TIMES in this thread that they're already modeled.  This entire thread started because I posted looking for someone to texture them BECAUSE they're already modelled.   

 

If we start redoing everything that's already done, it will take us six years to finish instead of three.  If you really want to come up with a new arrow concept, Oddity, the noise arrow still needs to be done, not to mention lots of other player equipment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We really only need a single model for the crystal arrows, as long as Doom 3 works like T3 does.

 

Noisemaker and Fire could be more real world oriented, gas, water and moss could remain crystal.

 

Speaking of water arrows. I just updated CVS and tried out the new stuff. WOW. The only odd thing about the rope arrow, is that the rope spawns a full foot to the left of where the arrow impacts. I'm sure you're aware of that already Dom. Aside from that, it looks really cool.

[Ishtvan]

What's even cooler is if you shoot a rope into the ground underwater, it anchors to the ground and floats upwards. I love unintended convergence of systems

[Domarius]

Looks like an AF rope or idChain will be the way to go eventually

[sparhawk]

What's even cooler is if you shoot a rope into the ground underwater, it anchors to the ground and floats upwards.  I love unintended convergence of systems

 

Me too. That's why I prefer generic solutions. Because they tend to have such effects without explicitly coding it in.

[Darkness_Falls]

How about a crystal noisemaker arrow? Upon impact, the shards of glass fall to the ground and wood chips and pebbles are released into the surrounding area. Haha, just kidding Just trying to annoy w/ another crystal arrow.

[oDDity]

Designing the new arrows isn't really a realism crusade for me. I'm designing most of them in an ambiguous fashion, so it's left up to the eye of the beholder as to whether they operate by crystals/magic or whether they're good down to earth designs of the inventors guild.

I just want to see some interesting and differing designs between the arrows, that's all.

[Darkness_Falls]

That's a cool approach

[oDDity]

A few arrow ideas.

Water - could be a sack of gelatin, or could be a water crystal

Rope - could have the realsitc explaination I gave before, or could have a magic expanding rope

Fire - could be a fire crystal in the holder, or some hot coals, or some volatile elements

Gas - could be a gas crytsal in the holder, or could be 3 compartments with 2 chemicals and a catalyst, which combie to produce toxic gas.

[sparhawk]

The rope arrow should definitely be in. I think for a gas arrow a metal holder would be to heavey and not practical. I guess it would be better something soft. For the fire arrow, why not a wrapped around cloth with some bag wrapped around for the explosives?

[oDDity]

Wrapping a cloth around and lighting it would be fine for a flame arrow, but ths is an explosive arrow we're talking about. The good thing about having it packed in a metal holder is the added punch from the shrapnel.

What about nosiemakers? I didn't like the way they made a noise whlie flying through the air in the Thief games. That would let the guards know which direction it's coming from. IT would be better to only make a nosie once it lands. Having said that, since you can lift any object and throw it, noisemaker arrows are a total irrelevance anyway. Why would anyone buy them.

[sparhawk]

But how does the arrow explode? It looks like a cage with some fire inside.

[oDDity]

That's left up to you, could be magic, could be elemental. Same with the gas arrow. THe idea of using holders is that it' becomes ambiguous as to how it operates, and you can make anything up.

[Darkness_Falls]

Those are really cool concepts.

 

I really like the explosive arrow one -- would that mean there's no need for a fire arrow? I'd be okay with that. Having explosive arrows rather than fire arrows could be a way to eliminate the exploit where people light their way with an arrow. How? Make the explosive arrow just have very dimly glowing embers in it's tip when it's nocked. Then when actually launched, as it travels through the air at a high velocity, the oxygen interacts with the stuff inside the tip to make it burn brightly inside as it becomes aflame. Upon impact, it explodes.

 

Other reasons why explosive arrow is better than fire arrow:

* Fire arrow has a brightly burning tip. This is bright to look at, considering you're alwasy in the shadows.

* Fire arrow is very bright when nocked, meaning enemies can more easily see you. Not a very stealthy tool to have.

 

As for noisemakers, we had already decided to do both:

Those who don't like noise arrows can throw pebbles. Those people who like noise arrows voted down fireworks as an option. They wanted something simple and semi-mechanical.

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...indpost&p=11329

 

I'll comment on the gas and water arrows in a min.

 

EDIT:

Gas Arrow - Although it's awesome from an artistic/inventive aspect, I'm not really into it from a gameplay standpoint. I really liked that in T2 the gas arrow tips seemed very delicate (very thin glass surrounding the gas) by the thin shattering sound they made upon impact. Therefore, using them was very stealthy. When I think of 'gassing' someone, I normally view that as something that should be a very quiet operation. T2 made it virtually silent. Your concept doesn't seem as delicate and stealthy to me. Also, I normally prefer arrows to have pointy tips for the most part; not spheres at the end.

 

Water (Gelatin) Arrow - Aside from preferring pointy tipped arrows, it's just my preference to have a crystal arrow for this.

[oDDity]

I'm not sure what you mean by fire arrow and explosive arrow.

What Thief refers to as a fire arrow, is in fact, an explosive arrow.

A fire arrow to me, would just be a cloth soaked in a flammable liquid, wrapped around the end of the arrow and set alight.

So that above can be called a fire arrow if you like to keep in line with Thief, but they are both explosive arrows.

THere's no reason why an arrow should have a pointy tip, especially these ridiculous fantasy types of utility arrow. THey are not meant to pierce anything.

For the gelatin arrow, it makes sense to have a large part of the surface hitting the taget at once, and not a point. I'm going to add some spikes pointing at the gelatin sack as well, which will burst it more completely on impact.

I'm not particularly fond of the gas arrow one myself, so I'm not goign to argue its case..

[Springheel]

I'm not opposed to the idea of non-crystal arrows on principle, and the designs above are attractive, but there's something to consider.

 

Currently, the thief can find crystals growing in places throughout the map and put them to use. As a mapmaker, if you want to give the player some extra fire arrows, you add a few crystals to a fireplace or pool of lava somewhere. It may be 'magic' and a little contrived, but it has its own internal consistancy. It's a lot harder to justify the existance of a mechanically-created arrow like those above just lying around in a kitchen or a crypt.

[oDDity]

Not if we make them more common. If they are not magic, and are being produced by inventors, there's no reason why oher people wouldn't have access to them, and therefore have them lying around - or more likely locked away in a chest or armoury.

You said yourself in the other thread that you'd like to see other characters in the game use them as well. There's no eason why they'd be the exclusive property of thieves.

[Darkness_Falls]

I was only using fire vs. explosive arrow terminology to differentiate the two (old vs. new). Now that that's clear, yes, I agree your concept is a Fire Arrow.

[pakmannen]

The rope and fire are perfect. I'd prefer a more watery look for the waterarrow though. Crystal would probably be good. The gasarrow looks good but might be more suitable as some sort of noisemaker (with a few modifications perhaps)

[sparhawk]

Actually that is a goo dpoint that Spring makes, and it is the same thing that I also thought. For me as a player it felt quite natural to find a fire arrow in the oven and a water arrow in watery places. Not that I really thought that they would grow there. When I first encountered a fire arrow in a oven, I thought the owner put it there to create the fire in the first place, because it would be a convinient thing. As I accepted the magical nature of it, I didn't mind tha tthe fire went out after taking it. Having a "real" explanation how they work, takes away the consistency and the placement of such additional arrows really makes it feel contrieved. Just like everburning torches in a deep down cave system.