Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Recommended Posts

Whosh, finished level 2. THe whole level was a joke. I decided to skip mines and factory and took the elevator. After blackjacking everyone in sight except two people sitting behind windows with alarm switches, and a gurad near one of them, I finaly got hold of prison cells. Well, Basso got himself dead, so I get to drag him out. Well, that's better than make him pass through the two alarm areas. Then found Cutty, that one got himself sick, told me some stuff, died, and, fortunately, I didn't have to drag him. So I dragged Basso, somewhere around level division... I go on to do something with an alarm watching guy. The siren was alredy on, alarm guard at full alert, and a bunch of corpses. When I released the Basso and Cuttie guys, I had to release all others. The idiots ran, raised the alarm, and it was near impossible to blackjack the alarm guard, but I still tried, failed, and thought that I had to load later. He ran after me, and I ran from him out of the prison, also getting a tail of those other two guards, and after I ran to the lift they stopped running. I went back inside, and the guards were looking at the bodies of guards I blackjacked before... So I just slipped by... There were no more alarm guard because they all were busy with the bodies, so I just carried the body out. All the way back, to the mines... I forgot to kill some zombie, but I had a holy water. I wonder if I had to replay if I didn't. So I went on, and went down the other lift, which doesn't work from below... For some reason, a passage showed up. If you look up at the beggining of the level, you'll see it... So I just came down the ladders and jumped into the water... Pretty bizzare. Sorry for writing, you probably played that level a dozen of times, but I never played a stealth game...

This game has a dozen of bugs. Guard are terribly deaf and unsuspicious, they can't climb ladders, they can be blackjacked at the exact moment the see you, they don't react at doors opened, water arrows shot, goods stolen, jumping, you can't hit a wall with a sword or blackjack... Or my version is buggy?

Overall, the game is pretty realistic in most aspects - prisoners get themselves caught and it is hard to blackjack an alert guard if he is not shadowed, they react instantly if they see you in full light. I suppose some of the things (like not raising the alarm because of noise arrow or not hearing doors open) are made on purpose, so the game won't be too boring. The level design is pretty realistic - there is the mines, there is the factory where you can make mauls (in fact, when they see you, guard that make the mauls will grab one from a box), then the prison areas, and barracks (looks like a shrine a bit), and they don't create an impression that they are not real, like in most FPS.

 

In the whole level I used only the noisemaker arrow, and water arrows for zombies, and holy water of course. Didn't find any use in moss arrows, there is really no loud places in that level. Even if there are, you just travel from shadow to shadow, shooting the noise arrow to check whether there are any guard near. Sometimes I hide in a certain shadow for 15 minutes, waiting for a patroling guard to come. The only place I wasn't able to solve, was with two people that werent guards. They were near a table, and there was a gold maul that I wanted to get. If I shot the noise arrow, they heard it only near themselves, besides, I couldn't get it then. There were no shadows there... Somehow, I managed to shoo off one of the guys with a noise arrow, who I blackjacked later in the dark corridors, but the other one didn't move too far... I just didn't care and ran to him, grabbing the maul and the arrow and running back. That one actually summoned a Hammer of Retribution on me! I had 4 lives left, and ran back to the prison... I don't know where he was, but he didn't run far... Well, I got my 1200 gold yet.

 

Well, quite a lot for one level, isn't it? I suppose it's about ten of them in all?

 

Are the first levels, like, introducint the parts of the people? First one was about the city people, second about the builders, third, from what I saw in the movie, pagans. I can't wait for wait for the third mission, but it's 3:00, so I suppose if I grip to it I won't sleep today.

 

And after I played all this - the guards behave pretty much same. Wht if you make, like different types of behavior? One guard may be alert for every sound so moss arrows will be essential, Other guard had a bad day and will race you until he kills you or can't go further, so he'll just wait it out. Another guard may be drunk a little or feel drowsy or not liking his position and not care what is going on, etc.

 

Sorry for annoyance. Don't bother. It's all a load of waffle. But I enjoyed writing this, since after I had a good day I have to tell someone aobut it all, so I don't care... I'll just go and try to steal the pagan horn... Tomorrow...

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 161
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

... but I never played a stealth game...

 

Well you did not play a stealth game this time either. You know the meaning of stealth? If you play Thief like that, than your are practically playing it like a shooter, without having to abillity to kill massive amounts of guards. What you describe here was no stealth game. :)

 

like in most FPS.

 

You see ... :)

 

Didn't find any use in moss arrows, there is really no loud places in that level.

 

Well, there can't be any louder places anymore after you raising the whole map to full alert. :)

 

Sorry for annoyance. Don't bother. It's all a load of waffle. But I enjoyed writing this, since after I had a good day I have to tell someone aobut it all, so I don't care... I'll just go and try to steal the pagan horn... Tomorrow...

 

Have fun. :)

Gerhard

Link to post
Share on other sites

How am I supposed to play it :lol:?

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites
The term FPS still applies to Thief...only it stands for First Person Sneaker. Ideally, you want to get through the level without knocking anyone out or killing anyone. Like finger said though, you can play anyway you like.

 

But what are the rules of playing it properly? I'm not supposed to blackjack anyone or raise alarms or ever be noticed or what? Am I allowed to kill zombies or be noticed by zombies? Maybe I shouldn't use noise arrows? What are those rules?

 

Because some things look like they are made the way they are on purpose. If I won't blackjack the guard who watches the cells, I can't open any cell. I can drag him out by shooting noise arrows now and then... But in realyty, won't he hear a cell open? And will he be syupid enough to leave his post? And so on...

Edited by Forsaken

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites

It isn't how you should play it as it is playing a style that allows you to enjoy it the best. For me, the extra challenge and exhilaration of only using a blackjack when I must use it to progress (when I can't sneak by) and of trying to reload as little as possible makes the game the most enjoyable for me. Killing guards simply makes the game too easy and reduces the challenge too much. I tend to like to play as if I really were Garrett robbing this place or that; just trying to get in and out without a problem, and trying to avoid leaving signs of my presence as much as possible. Just try it sometime, it might make it more fun to play ;-).

 

As for the undead and other non-human creatures, there isn't the same consequences of killing them as say, a guard. Afterall, that guard might have a wife and kids to come home to :laugh:; just because I'm a thief doesn't mean I don't have a conscience. Also, the murderers are the one's that are on the Watch's top priority right now; if I can avoid some bloodshed the Watch won't actively pursue me. Also--although it doesn't effect gameplay--if a few guards are missing from their fellow's patrol due to a stroke to the head, someone might get suspicious and raise an alarm. If I'm robbing a site of the undead, frankly, my only goal is to get the loot and get out alive, and I will do all that I can to hold onto my skin. I don't have a problem using the sword on the undead, or other creatures for that matter, but then again, I don't go out of my way to slaughter them; I just don't worry if I'm forced to. If I can use an alternative to sneak past them I will, and if I can't then violence it is.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I thought that the best way to play the game is come and go as though you never were there, and then later someone will notice that they lost all they gold. Blackjacking is always equal to corpse, if someone was blackjacked, the guards will know that someone entered. But the way that prison was made - guards overlooking the cells were only disabled if knocked out or lured out, and luring out is as "wrong". I wonder what oDDity did there... Actually, if someone is missing on a patrol, they should be suspicious. But because of game bugs or gameplay reasons, they are not... Personaly, if there are diffeculty levels in your mod, the expert one should be as much realistic as possible, with guards noticing open doors and suspicious of funny sounds, while normal could be the usual, only what I hate about some games these days, people tend to not test the games...

 

I decided that I rather use holy water than swords... I never use the sword. I just can't avoid other people's attacks. And boars I'll rather avoid absolutely, I don't have any phoenix arrows for them. But I only blackjack guards, though that can end up with a head damage too...

 

How do you use rope arrows? And what are fire ones for?

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rope arrows are used by shooting them into a wooden structure above you, such as a ceiling, banister, or balcony, and then you can climb the rope attached to the end of the arrow. Fire arrows are essentially arrows that explode into your enemies. They make a lot of noise, and I never use them.

 

If the AI is too easy, maybe you should try the ultimate difficulty mod? I've heard that guards notice open doors, hear from much further away, among other modifications that make. I've never used it myself, but it was suggested to me and evidently makes the game much more challenging.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To Domarius - but somehow, there is difference between playing it as a shooter or not. But it is still passable like a shooter, so there are some rules people create for themselves so they can say they played Thief as a stealth game.

 

Hmm, I AM playing on expert. I can show you a page from Crag Prison with all tasks finished. Maybe it'll be a lot harder from now, I don't know. The problem is, it is still as easy to blackjack. I can't fight with the sword... Blackjacking is much easier. You hit only once.

 

TO Ombrenuit - I suppose stopping blackjacks will be enough for me now...

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the idea is that Garret should be so skiled as a thief that you shouldnt HAVE to set silly rules for yourself. Sneaking should just naturally be easier in general.

 

If you can play through the game like Conan without having to reload every few minutes, then IMO the game designers failed to create a stealth game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They did fail to create a true stealth game - If you practise at swordfighting in Thief 1&2, you can become proficient enough to consistently kill every guard you come across, without any significant risk at all. Once you have figured out the AI and the swordplay mechanics, it is quite trivial to ironman your way through the game, and only on the levels where it automatically fails you for killing or being detected is it a problem. This is why there should be no swords (or weapons in general) for the player - they are not the weapon a stealthy, weedy thief would carry, they unbalance the game and turn it into a FPHF (First Person Hack-Fest), and they are generally just daft. If you want to play thief as a stealth game, dont pull out any weapons unless you have to.

 

To really up the challenge, don't buy any gear between missions, and fire off all of your arrows at a wall when you start the mission so you can't use them in the mission. Don't use your sword, and only use your blackjack in the sections of the game that force you to (there aren't many). Only then you are playing a true First Person Sneaker. Install the difficulty mod that Ombrenuit mentioned.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I don't need an expert level, just a normal one... I think not using any arrows is kind of strange. What is bad about shooting down a torch with a water arrow? I don't buy much gear, but I didn't play too far either... If I got trapped and got out the sword I always lose because Thief type of fighting is not the type I'm used too. In fact, Expert level restricts that. At expert level all you can do with a sword is hurt a guard or parry, and broadhead arrows are no use at all. Well, except angry some boar.

 

After playing first level without blackjack - there is no difference really. Maybe that is that kind of level. Sometimes, it's even easier, instead of crouching behind someone, you can just slip by. THe only guard I wanted to blackjack was the one guarding the trophy room, but I shot down the torches and he was pretty much blind.

 

In the Crag Prison I loaded... A lot. And saved even more... Half the time I just couldn't use the controls - the current controlls are not fammiliar too me much... SO instead of going backwards I go forward and get hammeres.

 

I think the problem with the game about its unstealthyness is just balance. It is balanced out, too much arrows, too stupid guards, too soft surfaces, not many patrols. If balance all that out, you'll have trouble putting out 4 guards. Especially if one of them will run of and call for backup...

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, there is more than one difficulty mod for Thief 2, doesnt one of them allow you to tweak AI difficulty or is that T3 only?

 

I would install everything you can find, finish the game and then look into the Fan Missions. There are some really good ones where the AI patrol paths are tough as hell, some you fail if the guards even see you for a second on expert. Some have new monsters that are tougher too, I recommend Island of Iron 1 and 2 for all of the above. Ominous Bequest is great too. The maps of Istvan Varga too.

 

Of course, nothing compares with the Dark Mod, which has nothing to do, in any way, with T2 or any of LGS's stuff or T3.

Link to post
Share on other sites
If the AI is too easy, maybe you should try the ultimate difficulty mod? I've heard that guards notice open doors, hear from much further away, among other modifications that make. I've never used it myself, but it was suggested to me and evidently makes the game much more challenging.

 

Actually this mod is quite funny. I totally forgot that I installed it some time ago, and I haven't played Thief for almost a year now. I was used that I knew all the tricks and when I started it a few days ago, I was quite surprised that I couldn't get past the first few guards in Thief 2 without getting caught. Did I get so rusty? After realizing that I installed that mod, it was clear to me and I was more carefull then. :)

Gerhard

Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes we are certainly going to make sure that you will have a fairly good chance of dying if you go head to head with a guard, or at least they will all be smart enough that they will converge in on you when one of them calls for help.

Yeah, in Thief DP and MA you could just run away from the guards, raise your sword while running, then turn and release the blow a couple of times while they chase after you. And what was really stupid, is when a guard stands between you and an archer. The archer will quite happily let fly directly at his best mate's back, killing him.

I don't think though, that little things like that are a bad thing. If you want to spend all your time trying to get one guard to kill another, or kill as many people as possible, that's up to you. If you want to change the difficulty, do that. Choice is good; it's how people decide to use it that dictates how the game is played.

For example, the dagger in DS. It was shit because, though it was a stealty weapon, it restricted people in ways the sword didn't. And backstabing became pointless.

I want to conclude by saying that I don't have a clue where I'm going with this, so I'm quitting while I'm ahead. *Braces for a flamin' from Oddity* :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess, if I'm being fair (which I never am) I can't blame people for playing Thief in a violent way. The designers made it the easier and most obvious playstyle to wander about whacking the guards with the BJ, or sniping at them with a varity of arrows, or laying mines for them and then running away..

It's by far the hardest playstyle to ghost the game, even relaxed ghosting, which is bizarre for a game that is supposed to be about stealth. They then made the incredibly lazy move of forcing you not to kill anyone on expert by making it a arbitary and mandatory mission objective, rather than actually implementing game mechanics to stop you from doing it.

We're going to rectify all of those mistakes.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. It's far too easy to just steamroller into the game with a sword and kill everything in sight. If the guards were a bit quicker to parry blows, and inflicted realistic damage, people might think twice before rushing in there with blade drawn.

You can't stop people killing altogether though. To do that there'd have to be no water, broadheads (which are shit anyway), fire arrows etc. This would remove the valuable puzzle element of the game that contributes to Thief's greatness (like igniting torches to open doors.)

Overall though, the killing aspect does need to be watered down a lot before true stealth can ensue.

 

PS. You guys are Gods.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, oDDity is right, as always... But I suppose he passes every level in five seconds without using anything and ever be noticed.

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...