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On "pagans"


Ombrenuit

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There really hasn't been any discussion thus far about pagan design, but personally after I glanced at the concept art of a "Elite Pagan", I have to say I was a bit disappointed. I think the single biggest element that pervades the thief universe is mystery. The enemies, the factions, and all the members of this City always seem to have a mysterious quality about them. I wouldn't find it so much intriguing or fun to sneak past William Wallace clones, no offense. It's my honest opinion.

 

However, like oDDity's five Builder characters--if he wishes to do the same number of pagans--I think the five pagans, of course, should be unique. The mark of the pagan is their affiliation with nature, and reminiscent of the movie, The 13th Warrior, I remember that the tribes that Beowulf was fighting were "Half men"--or so everyone thought. The reason these enemies were so terrifying was that one could not tell they were completely human. This was because their central feature was their animal-like Headdress that at first appeared to be their head until closer observation.

 

I believe that each type of "Pagan" should be marked by a Headress of an animal, much like the tribes of South America. The Warrior Pagan should be marked by a Wolf Headdress, a wolf head worn on his head obscuring his Human features with animal fur on his cloak. There could be a caster Pagan that could wear the headdress of a Parrott or other great bird with exotic feathers as a central feature on her cloak as well. In this fashion they would appear to be more "Half Animal" then fully human beings, and the role they play in their tribe is distinguished by the animal headdress they wear. Another suggestion for a headdress could be an Ox skull for an Assassin-like NPC, but the options are fairly limitless. In a shadowed field with the harvest moon underneath you see the figure cross a camp fire. It appears to be human at first, but suddenly it's head--the snarling form of a Coyote--is illuminated by the glowing coals as the "thing" adjusts its cloak in the darkness. This could make pagans terrifying and VERY memorable enemies, and I think should be considered.

 

Pagans are also more nature oriented and I believe that another mysterious quality that should be added is the feature of a cloak, as they are travelers and a weatherworn, almost nomadic people in a way. Finally, I might add that it would be very interesting that opposing the all male "Hammerite" group, there should be many female "Pagans". (If you wished to change the name of this faction, you might want to consider something along the lines of the "Gypsies", the nomadic people shunned by "civilization" who lived in nature for much of their existence in Europe as nomadic exiles). Many Indian tribes were Matriarchal, meaning they were ruled by women, and I think the female should play an important role in the "Pagan" culture.

 

This is my two cents, but I think it would add some serious spice to the "Pagan" recipe, and I can tell you right now, I would be much more excited to include pagans in my own missions if they were simply more mysterious. Also, because this isn't Thief I think we have more freedom with the concept, while I don't propose that they all have headresses, it would be distinct if a few did. It would also be interesting to give them a name much like the Gypsies because I think it would add a certain flavor in the game (I still think you should consider calling the Inventors Guild the Watchmakers instead :P). I hope it's taken into consideration, and I hope that it inspires some new ideas. ^_^

Edited by Ombrenuit
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I like the idea of each having a diffrent animal headress. I wanted to base then more on native Americans than celts anyway. And the bare breasted female part I already proposed as well. Couldn't get away with that in a commercial game, but we can do what the fuck we want. I've always wanted a run-in with huge tribe of unfettered amazonian female warriors - ideally involving being captured alive and forced to feed the voracious sexual appetites of the entire village.

The breasts will have to be large though. Huge breasts. Gigantic breasts. In fact, just a giant pair of tits with an animal head perched on top would make for a formidible enemy.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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The concept art for the elite pagan is actually based on early pre-Christian Irish warriors, not fourteenth century Scots. Shamans will indeed have animal headresses, but it would be pretty silly for all pagans to wear them all the time.

 

We have plans for female pagans already, as well as urban pagans that are more gypsy-like.

 

I would be careful about drawing sweeping conclusions from any one piece of concept art.

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The only part of Braveheart worth watching was Mel Gibson being disemboweled, I cheered out loud in the theater and got several angry looks from fellow viewers. Rob Roy was a much better movie, not the best but decent.

 

What about racial differences? One of the things I liked about the Thief series was that it wasnt all white faces. I would like to see different kinds of people, with different clothing and weapons and such. If for example the Thief travels to a Southern city or town, it would be cool to have different architecture and all. I know this is an assload of work, Im just daydreaming.

 

I'd like the pagans to cross the line between human and animal to a degree. Lets say we have a band of these wolf-warriors, perhaps one or two of the members, being of purer animal spirit and filled with burning devotion to the Lord of the Woods, actually take on some wolf characteristics. They could yip and snort, sniffing the air with their elongated snouts and howling to attract reinforcements. They could have improved senses, making them really tough to hide from, and perhaps they can run faster or fight harder or something. The point is to make the pagans really scary, I never found them that spooky in any of the games. In fact, the best encounters with pagans were the cutscenes, where they looked really witchy and animalistic and scary.

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We should make the pagans half animal. Some should be half human and half wolf - human body with a wolf head and tail, some half human half goat - goat legs and horns with a human body. Some should have three heads, one goat one wolf and one human, and some should only have eyebrows on a Saturday.

They come into towns and villages at night to steal children for sacrifice to their god - which everyone else calls the devil.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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You may be joking oDDity but some beast men would be cool imo. Not cheesy - nasty. Messed up. They may be at one with the beast in their own minds and customs but in truth they were humans who are now freakish hybrid nightmares. Superhuman abilities re: damage dealt, speed, senses. . . optional.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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Im not joking.

I want pagans to be evil satan-worshipping wolfmen and goatmen who kidnap humans for sacrifices.

Anything would beat the pathetic idiots they were in the thief games.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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If a giant City is ever constructed, it would be neet to have different sections populated by different races/cultures. So while the predominant features around town would be white Western Euro types, at least in the Main City, the "Bazaar" could have merchants from around the World, a gypsy/Pagan ghetto, a foreigners living section with different looking people, you get the idea. Rather like our "ChinaTowns" here in the U.S. which generally refers to the Asian community at large. The same architecture could be used, but different trimming so to speak, different rugs and furniture and such.

 

Imagine two City Watchmen walking the foreign sections streets, one complains about these "dusky foreign devils" and the other shoots back "My sister married a dusky devil, you lout!"

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No, there's no need to be PC about it. THey'd have these 'dusky devils' as slaves.

The City Watch should pick on them randomly in the street and beat them up for a laugh.

It all comes back to how gritty and realistic the setting should be, because history wasn't a very nice place.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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No, there's no need to be PC about it. THey'd have these 'dusky devils' as slaves.

The City Watch should pick on them randomly in the street and beat them up for a laugh.

It all comes back to how gritty and realistic the setting should be, because history wasn't a very nice place.

 

Fair enough, the foreigners would be pretty much stuck in their small section of town or face an angry mob assaulting them in the street. Townsfolk could be overheard muttering "Those damned foreigners....brought the plague with em, they did!" and other nods to Medieval Europe. Shoppers in the Bazaar would be heard accusing them of being cheats and vice versa. Guards would enforce curfews on the foreigners, any caught on the streets after 9 get a thumping and its off to the pokey with you.

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I think it would be most dull to ape history like that. Why not have the foreigners as the rich and powerful visitors who treat the "Euro" types as slaves and mistreat the people from the City they employ to hawk thier foreign wares, and who have the money and power to spit on the Watch with no fear of reproach?

 

If you want wolfmen and such oDDity (and I agree that the pagans in TDS were quite lame) why not add that dark, twisted, aspect to it? The chicks can still have the funky coloured tatoos though! :P

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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I think it would be most dull to ape history like that. Why not have the foreigners as the rich and powerful visitors who treat the "Euro" types as slaves and mistreat the people from the City they employ to hawk thier foreign wares, and who have the money and power to spit on the Watch with no fear of reproach?

 

If you want wolfmen and such oDDity (and I agree that the pagans in TDS were quite lame) why not add that dark, twisted, aspect to it? The chicks can still have the funky coloured tatoos though! :P

 

We're talking about two separate groups here.

THe people Maxiumus is referring to are not the pagans, but just various ethnic groups in city slums. I don't think we want pagans with wolf and goat heads actually running the city.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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The "Pagans" or "Gypsies" or "Satanists" don't necessarily have to be satanic. I think they can be a legitimate faction with a legitimate influence on politics within "The City". Perhaps they could live outside it's walls and dominate the lands outside, attacking merchant carts as highway men in the fog, and be somewhat militant to the City as it expands into their lands. They don't have to be pansies either. They could have stacks of bones around their camps and be headhunters as well, but I think the key thing here that I was sort of looking for was that they would be tribal, but still sophisticated (And yes, I do think headhunting is more sophisticated then essentially creating a demonic peoples ;) ) Personally, I agree that they shouldn't all have headdresses on, but for the most part, I think the most memorable of them would. I think they should have their own customs and be dark and mysterious in their own way.

 

One interesting idea would be that if a Wolf Headdress Pagan is alerted by the player, perhaps he will try to sneak off screen and hunt the player rather then running right after him. This may be far more complex AI-wise then any programmer would want to worry themselves with, but I think it would be an interesting theme.

 

When I see Celts and Scots it just makes me think of "Un-sophisticated" personally. I feel bad for saying this but as my AP European History teacher would always say "Until the Spanish Armada, the United Kingdom was the armpit of Europe." Unsophisticated and essentially living in a swamp, France was the place of the intelligentsia at the time.

 

I must admit though, I was inspired in part by Diablo II as well, as the druid could wear the Headdresses of a Wolf and a Bird as a helm. These were called Animal Helms, and you can take a look at them here: http://www.diabloii.net/items/class-specific/dru-excep.shtml

 

Also, I apologize about drawing a sweeping conclusion about the Pagans from that one concept art piece.

Edited by Ombrenuit
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No, the pagans don't have to be satanic, nothing in the game has to be anything, but I just like the idea of an evil devil worshipping cult of bloodthirsty dangerous halfmen, instead of the stupid nonsense talking born victims the pagans were in Thief.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Uh oh, I forsee Macsen going ballistic in 3...2...1

 

*Head explodes*

 

When I see Celts and Scots it just makes me think of "Un-sophisticated" personally. I feel bad for saying this but as my AP European History teacher would always say "Until the Spanish Armada, the United Kingdom was the armpit of Europe." Unsophisticated and essentially living in a swamp, France was the place of the intelligentsia at the time.

 

I think the mental image you have of celts is as tatooed pagans from Germany who migrated over to France and the UK. And yes, they were unsophisticated by today's standards. The only real civilization around at the time were the Romans, who weren't sophisticated by today's standards either (they fed people to lions, you know). The Thief world is by its nature anachronistic - these people never existed side by side with medieval folk or victorian folk. :)

 

By the time of the Spanish Armada (same year in fact!) the first Bible was published in a Celtic language, so these people had some sophistication or otherwise thy'd have tried to eat the Bible or use it as bait to catch fish. ;) Long before then all the pagan celts had been converted to christianity and so had stopped being the crazy, naked tatooed 'unsophisticated' madmen you're thinking about. The great deoderant of the renaissance started in Italy and moved its way up, making the world's armpit much more bearable.

 

P.S. I've lived in the UK for 21 years and have never come across 'a swamp'.

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The Scottish and Irish monasteries played a crucial role in preserving and fostering knowledge during the ups and downs after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Their isolation made them safe repositories for manuscripts than towns and monasteries located in more central regions and some became famous as schools for transcription and illustration. Ive seen a reproduction of that bible macsen, its really beautiful.

 

Even the older peoples had complex cultures, with written and unwritten canons that date back centuries, even millenia. Some of these are still alive today in local rituals and folktales, some in traditions as widespread as mistletoe over your doorway. To call this an "armpit", especially by a historian !?, is puzzling.

Edited by Maximius
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