Idea Feasiblity Query

[Maximius]

I posted this a while back on that rope-arrow thread that almost turned into a flaming rope arrow thread. I was wondering if any of youse TDM wonks could speak to the feasiblity of this project.

 

"The Thief finds a scroll in a witches den he's rolling. The scroll is an incantation to bind a familiar. What the heck he figures, cant hurt. He has to go find a rat and frob the scroll. Now the rat appears in inventory. It is deployed like the scouting orb. (I know there are no orbs in TDM) The Thief sees through its eyes, but theres more. The Rat has a light gem too, cause if a cat sees ya or you get too close to a guard, splat! The Rat can scale some surfaces, like wood or cloth, and can carry up to one small item at a time in its mouth (key, gem, coin).

 

FMs could be developed along the lines of a dual storyline. I think I mentioned this on ttlg, the Thief gets caught and manages to toss the Rat into a trashcan as he is dragged off. Now, the Rat must make its way into the prison or dungeon, find the lokpix or key, get it to the Thief.

 

Now, the Thief's adventure begins. He must make his way back over the terrain the Rat did, but this time its a completely different play experience as a human.

 

Or another theme idea, the Rat goes one way and the Thief goes another, say in some ancient tomb where the safety switch for a booby trap is down the hall. The Rat goes down to the switch, then the Thief takes over and completes the loot haul. Then both must meet up at the exit. Ah, early morning Thief ramblings...

[sparhawk]

I guess you mean it that the player can switch between the rat and the thief as a the controlling character? The rat would be trailing with the thief, while the Thief would have to wait until you get back to it. Something like that?

 

As to the projects major obstacles. Doing the rat trailing behind should be rather easy. The lightgem would also not be a big problem, though it has to be adjusted for the rat, but this would be no big deal. You wouldn't even need to change the code, or probably only slightly, depends. What definitely would have to be implemented is the wall scaling. This can be done for sure though, because there is a D3 mod which does this for the spiders (they are scripted in vanilla D3). I don't see a general problem with this. It would still be a lot of customizing, because you would need to create the models and animations and add the code for switching between the player entities and such.

 

If you want to have a lightgem for both of them at the same time, I do see a problem though. The lightgem is rather performance intensive, and I don't think it would be a good idea to create multiples of it.

[Maximius]

I guess you mean it that the player can switch between the rat and the thief as a the controlling character? The rat would be trailing with the thief, while the Thief would have to wait until you get back to it. Something like that?

 

As to the projects major obstacles. Doing the rat trailing behind should be rather easy. The lightgem would also not be a big problem, though it has to be adjusted for the rat, but this would be no big deal. You wouldn't even need to change the code, or probably only slightly, depends. What definitely would have to be implemented is the wall scaling. This can be done for sure though, because there is a D3 mod which does this for the spiders (they are scripted in vanilla D3). I don't see a general problem with this. It would still be a lot of customizing, because you would need to create the models and animations and add the code for switching between the player entities and such.

 

If you want to have a lightgem for both of them at the same time, I do see a problem though. The lightgem is rather performance intensive, and I don't think it would be a good idea to create multiples of it.

 

 

Ok, remember how the scouting orbs worked, you would deploy them and you could use them until you broke contact, then you had to go get the thing. I want something similar, except that you can break contact with the rat, have the Thief do some stuff while the rat hides under a chair, then switch back to the rat to complete tasks with it. This would work back and forth as many times as was needed, you would not have to wait for the rat to return to the Thief to use the Thief character. Problematic?

 

I figured the rat could be carried by the Thief when not in use, clinging to his back or something like that. I dont think you would even have to see much of the rat itself, maybe when its deployed but the player is using the Thief you would see the little guy on the ground but thats about it. It wouldnt have to be the highest rez rat either.

 

When the player is in Rats Eye View, hereafter REV, all that would need to be modelled AFAIK is his front paws moving in front of him and the tip of his snout and whiskers for fun. Maybe if he picks up a key or something you could see that in his mouth. The wall climbing thing is perfect, but what the hell is vanilla D3? I thought D3 was "vanilla" enough....

 

As for the light gems, would it be possible to keep the light gem when you switched characters as opposed to constructing two distinct ones? If thats not doable, would there be any other kind of detection thingy that could be constructed? I just wanted to extend the sneaker factor to the familiar as well.

 

Since we mentioned spiders, I had another fun thought, what about a spider familiar? It too can climb walls, and can pick up small items in its forelegs. Its about the size of a RL tarantula, but heres the special twist. If you can sneak up behind a guard on a wall or tapestry, and line up with his/her neck/head, the spider familiar can leap and bite the guard on the exposed skin and give him/her an injection of venom. This isnt necessarily deadly, but it could be a KO. the spider could only do this once on a map cause it take all of its venom to KO a human and it must replenish its supply over time.

 

The Spiders Eye View, SEV, would be fun too. You can see a few of its legs, maybe an object its carrying, and the GUI hud could be faceted into a couple of panels to remind the player of the spiders 8 eyes.

[sparhawk]

Ok, remember how the scouting orbs worked, you would deploy them and you could use them until you broke contact, then you had to go get the thing. I want something similar, except that you can break contact with the rat, have the Thief do some stuff while the rat hides under a chair, then switch back to the rat to complete tasks with it. This would work back and forth as many times as was needed, you would not have to wait for the rat to return to the Thief to use the Thief character. Problematic?

 

Definitely problematic. You need a control scheme for the rat. I don't see how this exactly should work.

You can use the rat as the playercharacter as long until the contact brakes? Which contact? What happens then? How does the player get it back? I think you must think this through in detail what exactly should happen under which circumstances.

 

When the player is in Rats Eye View, hereafter REV, all that would need to be modelled AFAIK is his front paws moving in front of him and the tip of his snout and whiskers for fun. Maybe if he picks up a key or something you could see that in his mouth. The wall climbing thing is perfect, but what the hell is vanilla D3? I thought D3 was "vanilla" enough....

 

Unmodded Doom 3. Since we are a TC, it is no longer vanilla D3.

 

As for the light gems, would it be possible to keep the light gem when you switched characters as opposed to constructing two distinct ones? If thats not doable, would there be any other kind of detection thingy that could be constructed? I just wanted to extend the sneaker factor to the familiar as well.

 

Switching it can be done. But it has to be coded.

 

Since we mentioned spiders, I had another fun thought, what about a spider familiar?

 

Having a familiar as spider or as rat is just a minor detail. It doesn't change anything from the coding perspective. Of course you have to add different animations and such, but the principle would be the same.

[Maximius]

Sorry, Im slipping in some Americanisms...

 

Let me restate the whole scenario of rat control. The Thief has the rat in his inventory and decides to use it. So, similar to the scouting orb, he places the rat on the ground. Now we are in REV, rats eye view. So the player is now controlling the rat and the Thief is stationary somewhere, hidden of course, again like the scouting orb scenario. But now the player wants to switch back to the Thief. He switches back and now the rat is sitting somewhere waiting while the Thief does his work.

 

Here is the big difference that I see with the scouting orbs versus the rat. With the orbs, when you switched back to Garretts view, you could not reconnect with the orb until you retrieved it from the ground. (this is what I meant by contact, as in losing radio contact or a computer losing communications with a printer or scanner or something, it can be said to be "out of contact" with the puter. Or another example "We've lost contact with the Away team, Captain Kirk!!!) You had to get the orb back and re-toss it out to see through it again. But for the rat, I would like to be able to switch back and forth between viewpoints without having to retrieve the rat every time.

 

Now if the rat is attacked while the player is actively using the Thief, its simply dies and you have to find a new one. If the player is using the rat, and the Thief is discovered, the viewpoint automatically takes you back to the Thief, and the rat is left to fend for itself at least until the Thief defeats the opponents or successfully hides. Then he can take over the rat again.

 

I will try to work out a logic tree of decisions and action for the familiar idea. SHouldnt be too difficult.

Edited October 21, 2005 by Maximius

[heXen]

Hey, that's a cool idea! And with the spider too. What's a scouting orb?

[Maximius]

Hey, that's a cool idea! And with the spider too. What's a scouting orb?

 

Thanks, hexen, the scouting orbs are a tool from Thief 2, one of the nifty ideas from LGS. As for why and how you can use them, suffice it to say Lord Constantine will make that very clear to you soon enough, if you are still playing Thief 1.........

[Vadrosaul]

What have you been drinking Maximus?

[Maximius]

What have you been drinking Maximus?

 

 

The blood and vital fluids of some smartass who crossed swords with me. Why?

[Ishtvan]

It seems like it could be done, but would probably take some significant SDK modifications for the switching the viewpoint to the rat's view. Although, the functions to switch the viewpoint location and the ear location (for hearing sounds) do exist in the SDK AFAIK, so you might not even have to write your own. Switching back and forth is not a problem code-wise, once you have the single switch down, but you would need to work out the controls, like bind a new key for that, or use an inventory item or something.

 

In terms of seeing the rat's forepaws and stuff, that opens up the whole 'body awareness' can of worms. Even rat body awareness would introduce some significant hurdles. That's why we decided to leave body awareness out of our first release, since it introduces more problems than it's worth (like having to do "suck in" animations that might pull you into a light when you don't want to be lit).

 

Edit: If I had my choice in familiar though, I would have to go with venemous winged lizard.

[Maximius]

It seems like it could be done, but would probably take some significant SDK modifications for the switching the viewpoint to the rat's view. Although, the functions to switch the viewpoint location and the ear location (for hearing sounds) do exist in the SDK AFAIK, so you might not even have to write your own. Switching back and forth is not a problem code-wise, once you have the single switch down, but you would need to work out the controls, like bind a new key for that, or use an inventory item or something.

 

In terms of seeing the rat's forepaws and stuff, that opens up the whole 'body awareness' can of worms. Even rat body awareness would introduce some significant hurdles. That's why we decided to leave body awareness out of our first release, since it introduces more problems than it's worth (like having to do "suck in" animations that might pull you into a light when you don't want to be lit).

 

Edit: If I had my choice in familiar though, I would have to go with venemous winged lizard.

 

 

thanks for your input, ish. what does SDK mean exactly? I guess the animations could be left out, they arent really important just window dressing. I dont understand the "body awareness" question though, Ill do some thread searches so as to avoid needless explanations.

[sparhawk]

The SDK is the software development kit. It's the C++ code and the heart of D3. Well more like the lungs.

[oDDity]

Scouting orbs and mechanical eyes were stupid, and this idea is equally as stupid.

It would make the game so easy it wouldn't be worth playing any more.

[Maximius]

Scouting orbs and mechanical eyes were stupid, and this idea is equally as stupid.

It would make the game so easy it wouldn't be worth playing any more.

 

Think what you like, but the notion that this would make the game "easy" truly is stupid. How could playing a sub-character with a fraction of the health, abilities, and weaponry be considered easier than playing the Thief?

[heXen]

It won't make the game easier. It will just tell you what to expect. It is a tool. I suppose the rat can travel around and you will know some of the surroundings so you can travel in a certain way. From what oDDity sometimes says, you can as wel never use moss, water arrows. Or noisemaker because they are indepletable.

[oDDity]

Think what you like, but the notion that this would make the game "easy" truly is stupid. How could playing a sub-character with a fraction of the health, abilities, and weaponry be considered easier than playing the Thief?

 

It would be impossible to be seen or caught. How the hell would you see or hear a rat who was trying to be quiet and unseen in a gloomy half lit castle.

Even if you did see or hear it, how would they catch it - start leaving mousetraps out for you?

THey wouldn't even give a shit if they did see a rat. They'd ignore it...'musta been rats'...

[heXen]

ANd? A rat runs around, what can it do?

 

Also don't forget you can't control a rat in every level and there isn't an unlimited rat number.

[oDDity]

Ah right, so you introduce a lot of contrived limitations on how often you can use the rat.

It 's just a magic eye to see the whole level without any risk to yourself - or 'cheating' to give it it's proper name. Hell, why don't you just turn no clip on and float through the level at you lesiure.

It's a gimmick to make the game pathetically, digustingly easy.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

Am I the only one who remembers that there were going to be mechanical scouting rats in T3?

[Maximius]

It would be impossible to be seen or caught. How the hell would you see or hear a rat who was trying to be quiet and unseen in a gloomy half lit castle.

Even if you did see or hear it, how would they catch it - start leaving mousetraps out for you?

THey wouldn't even give a shit if they did see a rat. They'd ignore it...'musta been rats'...

 

The same way you see a Thief who is trying to be quiet and unseen. Dont tell me they are impossible to see, I just saw a rat the other day that could have passed for a puppy. And this rat isnt simply going to be skulking about in the basement, it has to travel upstairs into m'lady's chambers, via the kitchen, nursery, and living quarters. And rats dont need to be caught, I have killed a few with myself and a stout stick is all it takes. Ill grant you this, it may take something extra to cause the AI to attack the rat, but thats simply a matter of making it a target with coding. It certainly doesnt strain credulity to imagine castle guards killing a rat. Specially if they catch it digging about in the key box. As for them targeting a spider, well thats an easy one and something the player would have little trouble believing.

 

Ah right, so you introduce a lot of contrived limitations on how often you can use the rat.

It 's just a magic eye to see the whole level without any risk to yourself - or 'cheating' to give it it's proper name. Hell, why don't you just turn no clip on and float through the level at you lesiure.

It's a gimmick to make the game pathetically, digustingly easy.

 

Whats wrong with that? The scroll is only usable once per day. Or it is only usable once. Or there are only so many rats available on the map. Every fucking tool in the game has a contrived limitation. Its no magic eye, its another character for the player to mix up his/her gaming experience with. You have to play the map much differently. Sure you can spy ahead with it but so what, you are going to do that anyway. Were you planning on stepping boldly into the light as the Thief? So there is no real difference, other than the gameplay dynamics.

[Maximius]

Am I the only one who remembers that there were going to be mechanical scouting rats in T3?

 

Really?

[Macsen]

God... anyone remember that N64 game Silicon Valley?

 

Skill A ... Floaty Hop!

[Ombrenuit]

Maximus, I think anyone here can tell you its possible. When it comes to game design etc., the sky is almost always the limit, but resources and labor are not unlimited. I doubt there are many who would go through the trouble of customizing your mission for you , but I can't speak for another's genorosity. Just, from my experience, if you can't do it yourself, don't get your hopes up

[Dram]

Spar, an idea to make the thief and the rat use a lightem:

 

The thief would use the complex one which is performance intensive, and the rat would use the simple version. Since the rat only needs a tiny point to get relatively accurate results, you could use the simple lightgem model, because it uses only the one sample point. This way you would'nt have to worry about crazy performance issues.

 

oDD: Quit it, seriously. If you don't like it don't use it. No need to bag someone's idea if you don't like it.

[sparhawk]

Whats wrong with that? The scroll is only usable once per day. Or it is only usable once. Or there are only so many rats available on the map.

 

The problem is with balance. The thief has a big advantage over the AI already. So if you introduce new cool ideas, you always must consider the gameplay implications. I think that the rat idea sounds cool at the first introduction, but when I think about how it would feel in the game, what it would mean for the gameplay and such, than Oddity is right even though he is rude as usualy. If you have to start thinking of how to limit a tool and need to introduce a lot of limitations then the question arises why such a tool should even exits?

 

Every fucking tool in the game has a contrived limitation.

 

Which one? Of course the tools have some limitations, but I'm not aware that the current tools require a lot of extra limitations just to make them work.

 

Its no magic eye, its another character for the player to mix up his/her gaming experience with. You have to play the map much differently.

 

How? It is a spying tool that is barely detectable AND it can move. The scouting orb, had it's natural limitation that it couldn't move, and you had no control once you threw it. This is a natural consequence of the device itself. Of course they could have introduced an invisible floating orb but why did they not?

 

Sure you can spy ahead with it but so what, you are going to do that anyway. Were you planning on stepping boldly into the light as the Thief? So there is no real difference, other than the gameplay dynamics.

 

The difference is, that you can easily spy out a room with this. When the thief is standing around the corner and looking there is a chance that he gets caught. The rat is much save because it can crawl under chairs where the AI can't even follow. So there needs to be a balance for this otherwise the game would become REALLY easy once you start using a rat. Basically it would be just the routine of deplying the rat, scouting the next corridor, move forward, repeat.