Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Idea Feasiblity Query


Maximius

Recommended Posts

Spar, an idea to make the thief and the rat use a lightem:

 

I don't have a problem. It's not my idea and I have enough to do. I certainly wont implement it. :)

 

oDD: Quit it, seriously. If you don't like it don't use it. No need to bag someone's idea if you don't like it.

 

An idea should be discussed and stand up to severe criticism. The more criticim it can stand up to, the better it is. If I can shoot down an idea with two sentences, it was probably not a good idea at all.

Gerhard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 105
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

THe only way a rat could be used is as a decoy to lure guards from their posts, or frighten maids to run away etc while you can sneak by unseen while they look for the rat.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you see rats all the times you probably wont bother anymore. Just look at documentations about Africa. The people there seem to be so used to flies that they barely chase them away. If I have a fly ircling my head I would try to whack it until it's gone.

Gerhard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They wouldn't see rats that often. I'm not sure how rat infested you think houses were a few hundred years ago, but I'm sure they weren't any worse than today, and I've personally never seen a rat in my entire life.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They'd try and kill it, because if they knowingly let one run around, they'd be fired! No genteel Lady wants rat-crap in her soup.

 

I'm with oDD + co on this one. It'd make things easy and probably repetetive, even with the limitations suggested.

--

Somethin' fishy's goin' on here... Come on out, you taffer!

 

~The Fishy Taffer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rats are carriers of a range of nasty diseases, and people might well be inclined to kill rats on sight if they get the chance. In the middle ages, sanitation was very poor and rats reached plague proportions. To give you an idea what that means, it is something like 100 - 200 rats for every person, and in a filth ridden mediaeval street, you would probably see dozens of rats scurrying about the place like they owned it. I don't know exactly where you live oDDity, but there are places (eg Sydney, New York) where there are numerous rats to be seen if you are out after dark. You are either living avery sheltered life or you are not noticing how many rats there are in a typical Western urban city or town...

 

How about having a few cats roaming the castle? Then you have a challenge for the rat...

 

But really, it is just an unnecessary complication in my view, it is a human thief you are playing, if you want cat and mouse (or rat), I think a separate sub mod might be the way to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I apologize first of all, I should have made it clear I do not want the familiar as an everyday part of the Thiefs toolkit, I thought Id said it in the first posting but I didnt make it explicit. I was thinking of something more mission specific, like the Thief gets busted and tosses the rat into a trashcan as hes dragged off to jail. The rat then has to make its way across a city block to the gaol and get inside and yada yada.

Or a tomb with a switch across the map that needs to be tripped, the rat has one set of encounters on its way to and from the switch, the thief has his own getting the prize. Or a bank job with a bitchin security system where the rat infiltrate the systems guts to disable it then the Thief moves in.

 

spar:The problem is with balance. The thief has a big advantage over the AI already. So if you introduce new cool ideas, you always must consider the gameplay implications. I think that the rat idea sounds cool at the first introduction, but when I think about how it would feel in the game, what it would mean for the gameplay and such, than Oddity is right even though he is rude as usualy. :)

 

I wish I had a spider familiar, I send it to Ireland to bite Odditys ass off. After hes done his work, of course ;)

 

 

 

spar:If you have to start thinking of how to limit a tool and need to introduce a lot of limitations then the question arises why such a tool should even exits?

 

Good point, in this instance I think because the rat is both a tool and a character. The maps are the basis of its use, ultimately. The maps will demand the services of a rat with their special dangers and goals only managable by something small and furtive, but with good storyline and care this can be done without obvious contrivance. You will have a new tool to approach maps that the Thief cannot handle himself +as well as+ a new sub-character, with comepletely different abilities and weaknesses, a different way of handling dangers, heck a new point of view, literally.

 

 

spar:Which one? Of course the tools have some limitations, but I'm not aware that the current tools require a lot of extra limitations just to make them work.

 

Tools are both limited by their design, their cost, as well as their availability in the game, no? My point was that its not so crazy to use some limitations to tweak the game one way or the other. Course, I was screaming at the moment :blush:

 

spar:How? It is a spying tool that is barely detectable AND it can move.

The scouting orb, had it's natural limitation that it couldn't move, and you had no control once you threw it. This is a natural consequence of the device itself. Of course they could have introduced an invisible floating orb but why did they not?

 

True, but on specific maps those abilities would be challenged. I see your point if the rat were a commonplace thing.

 

spar:The difference is, that you can easily spy out a room with this. When the thief is standing around the corner and looking there is a chance that he gets caught. The rat is much save because it can crawl under chairs where the AI can't even follow.

So there needs to be a balance for this otherwise the game would become REALLY easy once you start using a rat. Basically it would be just the routine of deplying the rat, scouting the next corridor, move forward, repeat.

 

I think you see what Ive been saying, your points are correct in terms of everyday tool but please reconsider with the familiar as a "special guest" kind of tool for those extra tough cases.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

spar:If you have to start thinking of how to limit a tool and need to introduce a lot of limitations then the question arises why such a tool should even exits?

 

Good point, in this instance I think because the rat is both a tool and a character. The maps are the basis of its use, ultimately. The maps will demand the services of a rat with their special dangers and goals only managable by something small and furtive, but with good storyline and care this can be done without obvious contrivance.

 

I never conisdered this as a fulltim part of the tools, so no worries about them. I always thought about it as a tool for a specific map. For such a thing it would be ok and you would have to test it anway. If the map supports his familiar and provides some challenges which require you to figure out how to use the familiar that's ok and adds something new. But then the map must be balanced accordingly and of course the familiar has to be defined, what it can do and what not without exceptions. In HL2 there were several cool sequences, when you had to jump with that boat over stuff to get on with the map. I was very dissapointed when I learned that the code actually helped this along. So instead of using the boat and creating a map for it, they cheated and created code that helped you in these situations. This was all the more frustrating because it was not noticable, and I tried very hard to do some other stuff and couldn't. I always thought it was a lack of skill until I learned this, and then I new that it would be impossible except in this particular situation.

That's what I meant with no exceptions. If the tools are well defined such cheats should not be neccessary.

 

Tools are both limited by their design, their cost, as well as their availability in the game, no?

 

Limits imposed by their design are ok. These are natural limitations and are easily understandable. But to give you another example. In many advantures you have to collect items and combine them in order to achieve new things with it. Now you see a paper behind a fridge but you can't get at it, so you need a tool. In your inventory you have two similar tools. A poker and a broom. Both of them are suitable to reach the paper and fetch it (in fact I have done this many times in my lives when something fell behind a cabinet and similar and everybody will know this). So the game programmer may not have anticipated that you still have the poker with you at this point and you have to use the broom. If you use the poker it doesn't work. This is a contrieved limitation which the player wouldn't understand. From his daily live he knows that you can use these items for such a purpose but it is not allowed by the program. And belive me - I have encoutnered a lot of adventure games where such situations arise. As tot he avilibillity that is obviously up to the mapper and it must be according to how the game flows.

 

My point was that its not so crazy to use some limitations to tweak the game one way or the other. Course, I was screaming at the moment :blush:

 

Some limitations are ok, but they should follow naturally from the design or the situation. This is an immersion breaker just like the invisible walls that are still used in maps to block the player from reaching uncharted territory.

Gerhard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If it is part of a campaign it would sure be fun. :) For a single map I think it would be a lot of work in relation to the benefit. If you create a full campaign it makes more sense, because you would also have to explain why the thief is even able to use rats in such a fashion. In a single map you would just get a readme telling you this, but in a campaign you could create the first map in the normal way, and then something happens to the character that allows him to do such things, which are unfold by the storyline.

Gerhard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You would have to add in special AI advesaries for rats (cats and dogs) as well as give the existing AI animations for killing the rat (there won't be any animations for swinging at the floor). You'd need to change all of the player sounds (walking, etc). As others have mentioned it would open up plenty of exploitation opportunities, by allowing the player to get into spaces they weren't intended to, and where AI can't follow.

 

Lots of work for limited payoff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounds like an idea that should be used in one campaign, and one campaign only. It's simply too far-fetched, too "out there" to be a recurring part of the game. If it cropped up more than once, it strikes me that it would feel old-hat. A nifty thing to be coded by one campaign designer, not something for a toolkit.

--

Somethin' fishy's goin' on here... Come on out, you taffer!

 

~The Fishy Taffer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

spar: In HL2 there were several cool sequences, when you had to jump with that boat over stuff to get on with the map. I was very dissapointed when I learned that the code actually helped this along.

So instead of using the boat and creating a map for it, they cheated and created code that helped you in these situations. This was all the more frustrating because it was not noticable, and I tried very hard to do some other stuff and couldn't. I always thought it was a lack of skill until I learned this, and then I new that it would be impossible except in this particular situation.

 

The HL2 boat example makes your point perfectly clear. I really dislike it when I bump into such limitations, they disrupt immersion. Im glad you pointed out that consideration.

 

spar:That's what I meant with no exceptions. If the tools are well defined such cheats should not be neccessary........If you use the poker it doesn't work. This is a contrieved limitation which the player wouldn't understand. From his daily live he knows that you can use these items for such a purpose but it is not allowed by the program. And belive me - I have encoutnered a lot of adventure games where such situations arise. As tot he avilibillity that is obviously up to the mapper and it must be according to how the game flows.

 

Yes, your points are right on. I hadnt thought about that but if I were playing the rat for the first time and discovered such limitations I would be disappointed. T1/2 had more than a bit of that with some simpler items, like candles you couldnt douse but others you could, or you can pick up this little thing but not that.

 

Im still curious about the idea but Fish might have it with a one mission deal, where a carefully balanced environment could be put together that took those things into account.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm, this whole idea reeks of familiarity.

 

Hey that wasnt me!

 

You would have to add in special AI advesaries for rats (cats and dogs) as well as give the existing AI animations for killing the rat (there won't be any animations for swinging at the floor). You'd need to change all of the player sounds (walking, etc). As others have mentioned it would open up plenty of exploitation opportunities, by allowing the player to get into spaces they weren't intended to, and where AI can't follow.

 

Lots of work for limited payoff.

 

That makes sense, it would be a pile.

 

I'd be more fun if you were a rat that, through occult magical powers, could take possession of a passing thief and make him steal you cheese. This is until the evil clockwork mice invade thy domain, lead by the evil dictator Karrats.

 

Now I know its time to give the idea a rest...

 

It sounds like an idea that should be used in one campaign, and one campaign only. It's simply too far-fetched, too "out there" to be a recurring part of the game. If it cropped up more than once, it strikes me that it would feel old-hat. A nifty thing to be coded by one campaign designer, not something for a toolkit.

 

Im thinking that too...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now I know its time to give the idea a rest...

 

I don't think so. It would certainly be an interesting mod, and I would like to play it. It mostly depends on your maps though. If you make good maps which support this, then it could be very interesting to play. If you just make regular Thief style maps, then it would be simply an exploit.

Gerhard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recent Status Updates

    • Petike the Taffer  »  DeTeEff

      I've updated the articles for your FMs and your author category at the wiki. Your newer nickname (DeTeEff) now comes first, and the one in parentheses is your older nickname (Fieldmedic). Just to avoid confusing people who played your FMs years ago and remember your older nickname. I've added a wiki article for your latest FM, Who Watches the Watcher?, as part of my current updating efforts. Unless I overlooked something, you have five different FMs so far.
      · 0 replies
    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
    • OrbWeaver

      I like the new frob highlight but it would nice if it was less "flickery" while moving over objects (especially barred metal doors).
      · 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...