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Is he able but not willing?

- then he is malevolent.

 

If I had to accept the existence of God (i.e. it was proven somehow), my money would be on a malevolent or indifferent God.

 

After all, we don't give a rat's ass about what ants or insects do (unless we are entomologists), and we certainly don't love them, so why the hell would God feel the same way about us?

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do we love our computers? we made them ;)

 

I certainly don't, every time it chugs in a game i get a very strong feeling of hate towards it, and if it crashes i give it the gentle "nudge" into the side of the case (has many dents now).

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How can you behave like that towards computers!!!

 

Computers are probably my favorite item in the house!

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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well, i pretty much was pissed at my computer because it kept:

 

1) crashing, randomly

 

2) ran like shit most of the time

 

3) stuttered wierdly a lot

 

All this was because my old vid card was dying, when i got a new one it did'nt do these things anymore, which means there are no new dents :)

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GTA is meant to be GTA..the basics of the newest one is still based on the very first one..and i dont think violence plays more part in gta than every 2nd game..what really saves it that gta was allways a game full of ideas, and thoughts.i love their unique design, the visual style ..

 

Spector is just jelaous that it wasnt him who first pulled off those innovative ideas the gta games brought into gaming

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Spector is just jelaous that it wasnt him who first pulled off those innovative ideas the gta games brought into gaming

 

Uh..right. Jealous? Fuck no. This is a perfect example of people casting judgement before they have all the facts.

here is a rather lengthly and well written clarification of spector's speech, most of it by Warren himself; Calling the guy a moron because someone says, "OMG WARREN SPECTOR HATES ROCKSTAR... etc." is just plain stupid.

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No but you love your kids, and you didn't techincally make them from scratch either, you only initiated their creation. :)

 

If that is a bad analogy, I'm going to know very soon I'm sure, but I was thinking along the lines of the concept that we are all supposed to be god's children.

 

 

Just so no one gets the wrong idea - i'm not a religous nut, in fact the stuff you guys have been saying, especially oDDIty, and then Obscurus, is exactly how I have felt all along but never been able to explain it so articulately. ANd those quotes are solid gold :)

 

But I"m of the opinon that I have to make sure these arguments are sound before I can use them myself. Orbweaver's is the only one I felt the need to test ATM.

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Well I can argue and then counterargue against that quote from Epicurus.

That argument is saying there is no god worth worshipping, rather than that there is no god, period.

The bottom line is that the deity has to be perfect in order to deserve our worship, and if the world is flawed, then its creator must also be flawed.

THe only real argument the theists have for there being an evil, flawed world, is that it is somehow a test for us. It's a moral obstacle course constructed by the deity, in which we are given free will to see which of us come out as worthy souls on the other side.

 

THat holds well for certain examples, but when you get to other things like for example, a 3 year old girl suffering some terrible diease and spending months in pain and misery before death.

Is god testing her moral fibre? Is he testing the moral character of her parents, or the doctors who feel helpless becasue they can't save her?

There is simply no good reason for it, and if I was to torture and kill a 3 year old girl in order to gauge the reaction of the people around her for my little experiment, you'd think I was the most evil perrson who ever lived, yet the theists are quite desperate to find some good reason as to why their god would allow it, or even deliberately instagate it.

God is torturing and kiling 3 year old girls in order to test the devotion of her parents? And this thing is meant to be all-loving, compassionate and perfect?

Does not compute.

If there is a god, then it's a seriously flawed and malevolent asshole, and the only reason for worshipping it, is nt because it deserves it, but because you're scared of what it might do to you if you don't.

And in fact, the vast majority of religoins have been based on that very principal - a malevolent god who needs satisfying with rituals and sacrifices in order to remain on your side.

THe invention of these gods obviously comes from the fact that nature is totally unfair and dangerous - crops fail, droughts and floods happen and people die because of it.

We cannot control nature or the weather in any way, so we invent gods who control nature, and we can then have some influence on those gods to conteol the weather on our behalf.

So, if you get a god harvest, the gods were pleased and you made the good harvest by pleasing them, but if you get a bad harvest, you don't conclude that this god believe is a load of nonsense and doesn't work, no, you conclude that you obviously didn't perform the correct rituals or sacricfice enough virgins, so you need to kill a few more next year.

It gives helpless people some illusion of control over natural forces.

THe of course, that idea of malevolent gods who want to to kill things to satisfy them gradually turned into the idea of a god who ony wants to to be good to satisfy him. IF you're virtuous and moral you will please the god, and ths obviously indicates that this god is superior to all the other gods, since other gods want you to makes human sacrifices, and this one only wants you to be a good person. This is where the idea of this compassionate all-loving, perfect christain god comes from.

You can see why that god became so popular - it's a hell of a lot easier to get along wiht than a god who demands you sacrifice your eldest son to him.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Well, to bring it back on topic..... I'm going to prepare to take a few rounds in the "War on Violence" and say that I actually liked some parts of GTA: Vice City. There was just something about driving aruond a city at a breakneck pace, running fromt the police while listening to Kate Bush that I couldn't get tired of.

 

Note, that I particularly liked the driving around, doing stunts etc... There were parts of the game, like the freeform assasination missions, that I just skipped because I found them too objectionable. Still, the driving gameplay was fun for me. I spent alot of time doing the ambulence and pizza delivery mini-games. I was surprised at that, since I don't generally go for much in the arcade-action category, but I enjoyed the "emergent gameplay."

 

Now, keep in mind that in real life, I'm a peaceful person who does positive volounteer work in the community and doesn't own a gun. (Ofcourse, as a side note, in some parts of the USA that makes me irresponsible for not being able to defend my neighbors against the government) I generally prefer more intellectual content in my games, but I do put up with a certain amount of "crap" because I figure it is the only way the makers can earn a living. For example, I enjoyed the Fallout series of RPG titles immensely. The first one had a very nice tragic arc. However, to play them you had to put up with alot of gratuitous violence (which was kind of part of the plot, sort of). I remember when I read the advertising copy about "turn your opponents into blood sausages" I almost didn't buy the game.

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No but you love your kids, and you didn't techincally make them from scratch either, you only initiated their creation. :)

 

The difference with children is that they are (or have the potential to become) our equals. We enjoy watching them develop into something quite like us, and in most cases we want them to develop some sort of independence rather than blindly worshipping their parents.

 

This is in contrast to the Judeo-Christian ethic of "we are absolutely nothing when compared with our supreme and omnipotent Creator, whose wishes are the Divine Truth that must not be questioned". That is why I mentioned ants rather than higher life-forms like dogs and cats - the gap between us and God is often considered to be comparable to that between us and an insect, if not greater.

 

If that is a bad analogy, I'm going to know very soon I'm sure, but I was thinking along the lines of the concept that we are all supposed to be god's children.

 

There is that as well of course, which illustrates one of the many contradictions inherent in religious beliefs. If we are God's children, then it follows that we should grow up into God's equals - but apparently we don't.

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Uh..right. Jealous? Fuck no. This is a perfect example of people casting judgement before they have all the facts.

here is a rather lengthly and well written clarification of spector's speech, most of it by Warren himself; Calling the guy a moron because someone says, "OMG WARREN SPECTOR HATES ROCKSTAR... etc." is just plain stupid.

 

Forgot to include some smileys on the end..i understand that he is frustrated and feels like that gta is the result of a missed opportunity to break the ground,and that its crime elements makes lot of gamers blind to the true innovations behind it..but well that could've happened only if those ideas werent of rockstar but someone else..

 

and did i say he is a moron? or that he hates rockstar? no..i didnt mean 'jelaous' with bad intentions..maybe that word is too hard for what i wanted to express..(sorry english is not my first language)

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If there is a god, then it's a seriously flawed and malevolent asshole, and the only reason for worshipping it, is nt because it deserves it, but because you're scared of what it might do to you if you don't.

It always amazed me that the term "god-fearing person" is used to describe a person who is devoted to and supposedly loves god.

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The good ol' power of irrational fear at work again...

 

People should be no more afraid of god (assuming it exists at all) than they are of supernovae. Fear is only relevant if it enables you to modify your behaviour to avoid a threat. Being afraid of snakes is useful, as snakes can potentially hurt you, and fear means you will avoid being bitten. Being afraid of a supernova is pointless, because there is nothing you can do to avoid it or prevent it. If you are a believer in some kind of omnipotent god, you might think that by praying or sacrificing bits of your childrens' genitalia that you might appease it's divine wrath, but really, how do you know it isn't having you on? How do you know it won't change the deal on you? How do you know it isn't testing you to just see to what lengths you will go out of fear of divine punishment, or dubious promises of paradise, and is really just laughing at your expense at how stupid and gullible you are? How do you know you have picked the right version of God TM to worship? The answer is you don't and you can't. So fearing some being that may or may not (probably does not) exist on the premise that you could influence the behaviour of that being to your advantage is pointless and futile. And if the supposed being is lying about it's supposed omnipotence and omniscience, again you would have no reason to think that it was capable of smiting you because you ate the wrong type of food on the wrong day or facing the wrong direction when you said your prayers. Religion is just stupid, pointless and destructive.

 

 

As for warren spector, well, um.... what was this topic about again? ;)

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well, i pretty much was pissed at my computer because it kept:

 

1) crashing, randomly

 

2) ran like shit most of the time

 

3) stuttered wierdly a lot

 

All this was because my old vid card was dying, when i got a new one it did'nt do these things anymore, which means there are no new dents :)

 

I'm pissed at my note for the same reasons, but I won't harm it. Like God harms humans.

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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Heh, then its pretty bad if we treat inanimate objects better than god treats us. :D

 

Through some amazing coincidence, I was actually thinking about the fear thing, and the ants thing, only a few days before I joined in this thread.

 

Some ants were invading the toilet (god knows why) and I was thinking about exterminating them, then toyed with the moral idea in my head that they were only doing what they knew best, and we could just kill them at our leisure for our own reasons. So I projected that to how I would feel being in a similar situation. I pretty much though exactly what obscurus was talking about then (nothing you can do about it), and also that those beings that would be so much more advanced than us would have much more important agendas than us anyway, like we do over the ants.

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The good ol' power of irrational fear at work again...

 

People should be no more afraid of god (assuming it exists at all) than they are of supernovae. Fear is only relevant if it enables you to modify your behaviour to avoid a threat. Being afraid of snakes is useful, as snakes can potentially hurt you, and fear means you will avoid being bitten. Being afraid of a supernova is pointless, because there is nothing you can do to avoid it or prevent it. If you are a believer in some kind of omnipotent god, you might think that by praying or sacrificing bits of your childrens' genitalia that you might appease it's divine wrath, but really, how do you know it isn't having you on? How do you know it won't change the deal on you? How do you know it isn't testing you to just see to what lengths you will go out of fear of divine punishment, or dubious promises of paradise, and is really just laughing at your expense at how stupid and gullible you are? How do you know you have picked the right version of God TM to worship? The answer is you don't and you can't. So fearing some being that may or may not (probably does not) exist on the premise that you could influence the behaviour of that being to your advantage is pointless and futile. And if the supposed being is lying about it's supposed omnipotence and omniscience, again you would have no reason to think that it was capable of smiting you because you ate the wrong type of food on the wrong day or facing the wrong direction when you said your prayers. Religion is just stupid, pointless and destructive.

As for warren spector, well, um.... what was this topic about again? ;)

 

Ah yes, but the rules are broken as always with theism. Theism is unique, in that it doesn't just affect you in this life, it pursues you into the next life as well. What you do here affects your eternity after death. So if this god is malevolent, then you should be afraid. Even if the god is all-loving and compassionate, you should still be afraid, becasue that won't stop it smiting you if you've been bad. This planet is just a big moral assault course constructed by god, and only the winners get the rewards. As far as the various religious sects are concerned, they are defintiely worshipping the right god, because there only is one, they are also doing it correctly because it's all layed out clearly in the *insert relevant holy scriptures here*

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I find the concept of people actually desiring eternal life rather bizzare. I don't think people really contemplate what it would mean to exist forever, and ever, and ever... What do people think they will do in the afterlife they seek? For me an eternity in heaven or hell would be the same, since I find the idea of not having an end quite horrifying. Infinite life = infinite boredom. Experiences in life would be of no significance if there wasn't limited time in which to accomlish them. I don't see any reason why I should persist when everything else in the universe will crumble to dust, but since eternal life would itself be a punitive experience, I have no motivation to pursue a lifestyle that is claimed to send me to one eternity over another. If God exists, it can go fuck itself, I have no interest in appeasing it or pandering to it's vanity and egotism, and since I have no fear of things I cannot control, I really couldn't care less if this alleged god decided to smite me....

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Quick aside:

 

Funny you should mention the eternal that way, Obscurus. Fear not, for others have also felt the nausea (or at least discomfort) you probably have experienced at contemplating it! I remember doing so since I was 5 years old - that first time I was asking my parents what happens after... after? What comes after eternity? Nothing? ERROR: Does not compute! Clearly I was too deep at 5 years old. It's not a fun thing to contemplate. I've occasionally tried to convey it to others but most people don't seem to go where I'm trying to take them. (Apparently to nausea, haha)

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It's probably very difficult for people living in a temporal dimension to contemplate what it might be like to not live in one. It's like trying to imagine living in a world with no width.

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Personaly, it's not so hard... It just won't look usual. But imagining a width-less world is not as complex as thinking about time or eternity or how we felt before we came to be.

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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