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Importing Thief Assets?


ZylonBane

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Okay...

 

I think we can take it as a given that people will want to create TDM missions starring Garrett, or even recreate entire OMs. But of course, including Garrett's speech files or any other Thief assets in a TDM FM would be a copyright violation. So how about this--

 

Would it be possible to code TDM so that FMs can use assets stored in the original Thief CRF files? I'm certain this would be legal. It's exactly the same principal that's been protecting emulator authors for years now-- they prodvide the emulator, the end users provide the LEGALLY OBTAINED ROM DUMPS (wink-wink). So for TDM, end users would just copy SND.CRF, etc. from their (legally obtained) copies of TDP/TMA into the Doom3 folder and go.

 

The CRF format itself isn't even proprietary-- they're just renamed ZIPs.

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I can see two sticking points with this approach:

 

1) If the mission author was to avoid copyright infringement by distributing his mission, it would be necessary for all players to have the Thief game installed as well as Doom 3 and the Dark Mod, which seems unduly burdensome when the author could just have used original content and avoided the issue.

 

2) The old Thief assets would be noticeably inferior in quality to what players familiar with the Doom 3 engine are expecting. Textures and models would be a non-starter, while sounds might be OK but even those are probably poorer quality to what TDM players will be used to.

 

Obviously, it may be that this is not even technically feasible (I don't know whether the SDK allows you to load different formats) in which case these points are moot. What WOULD be possible is to create a custom script that converts the SND.CRF into a PK4, so that the sounds can be imported manually, but I don't know how many authors would want to do this when they would not legally be able to distribute the resulting mission.

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I've been pondering the very same idea in my head for some time. That if Thief art, sounds, etc., can't be distributed, instead an application or script or design method could allow the original Thief assets to be used if they exist on the player's machine. Yep, I have no doubt something like this will come into existence, whether designed as part of original release TDM or not.

 

TDM missions with Garrett and Benny. Ha! :wub: :thumb:

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if the crf is just a zip, perhaps you could tell the person to just rename it to a pk4 (the pk4s in doom3 are just renamed zip files).

 

sounds like a very intriguing idea :) then you could recreate the OMs from thief 1/2/3 but in tdm and legally too. At least, this would be legal in AU afaik.

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1) If the mission author was to avoid copyright infringement by distributing his mission, it would be necessary for all players to have the Thief game installed
Not installed. The files can be copied directly off the CDs, if I recall correctly. So you'd only need the CDs, which I feel safe predicting the overwhelming majority of TDM players will already have. For those who don't have them, there's eBay. Or for those who just want the CRFs... well, let's be honest here... there's always P2P. And I don't see anyone getting too worked up over it. Game publishers are far more concerned about piracy of current games, not niche titles that are almost a decade old.

 

Obviously, it may be that this is not even technically feasible (I don't know whether the SDK allows you to load different formats) in which case these points are moot.

CRF is ZIP. PK4 is ZIP. The sounds are WAV files (screw the old graphics, I'm thinking about the wonderful sounds).

 

Formats shouldn't be a problem.

Edited by ZylonBane
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we discussed this, texture wise a while back.

 

It'd be quite easy to make a little program to rip assets out of a Thief install and into D3. More useful for soundbites than textures though, given the small resolution and lack of bumpmaps and what have you.

 

So yeah, pretty much possible, but it's not on our priority list right now.

 

Also welcome to the forums.

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yeah, i'm actually surprised at how good quality the sounds were.

 

but yeah, i think if you are allowed to do it this way then it can be done without changing anything. A small program could convert the crf to a pk4 and change the folders to match up with the doom3 ones (just for the legal things its better to use a program in which you have "control" over how the thief things are converted into doom3, you would'nt need to use a program for any of that really).

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I don't think this would work quite so easily. We would almost have to design for two different foundations. The Thief vocal sets don't have exactly the same counterparts in TDM. Some of the projects being discussed at TTLG would be far better suited for this, as they are aiming to recreate the dark engine but in an updated form. Their AI states and vocal keyset would directly mirror Thief 1 and 2. Ours doesn't and would likely take quite a bit of retooling to have the correct responses play ingame. Not really worth the added work when you think about it.

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If we are talking primarily about the ambient sounds, then I think a script to convert SND.CRF into something.pk4 would be the best way forward. It would have to create a new zip because the WAVs need to be under /sounds (I think), but this is certainly possible.

 

However, as ZB points out, who the hell is going to care (or even notice) about some old Thief sounds being distributed in an FM? Perhaps the tool could be used by an author to get access to the sounds, but they could still be "unofficially" distributed with the FM.

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However, as ZB points out, who the hell is going to care (or even notice) about some old Thief sounds being distributed in an FM?
That's not what I said. Distributing copyrighted game content with your FM is flat-out illegal. It's something that can be gotten away with for the most part, but TDM is in a position where such reuse would be subject to particular scrutiny.

 

What I DID say is that, basically, however the end user obtains the required CRFs is their own business. This distribution model (if you can call it that) has worked exceptionally well for programs like MAME. No reason it wouldn't work here either.

 

New Horizon, I'm not talking about AI barks. I'm talking about things like Garrett's quips, or conversations between characters, or even just really cool ambient sounds. Things that would be easy and desirable to reuse.

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The only sound effects I can think of that fall into the 'too good to re-do' category is the loot collection sound and the objective/mission completion sounds. I'm pretty sure our sound department has bested the rest already. The ambients are fantastic.

 

P.S. ZylonBane, TF and Onion Bob, all in the same day? Has some kind of TTLG floodgate been opened, or is ZylonBane just hounded by a harem of clowns wherever he goes?

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I've been registered since 2005 but didn't feel like starting to post just yet.

 

Since 2005? Wow, that is a long time. Before I was born, in fact (I'll finally escape this wrechted womb in January).

 

 

 

A startling coincidence is it not, nonetheless, brand me a clown again and it's the spinning thing with the twelve blades again.

 

Ok, I'll be politically correct and call you a 'cosmetic wearing jape-effecter'.

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I should point out that a large number of the ambient sounds and sound efffects in the original thief series are actually commonly available sample sets, many of which are already in the public domain. I've played around and analysed some of the samples, many of them are bit for bit IDENTICAL to samples used in Unreal (Unreal uses mostly public domain sound FX - I've heard the samples in Unreal in all kinds of TV shows, films games, particularly low budget ones, which suggests they are either free or very cheap), DF:Jedi Knight, and a host of other computer games. The sample in Thief played when you eat a food item is a typical example - I don't think anyone knows who (if anyone) owns the copyright on this sample, I recently heard it on a television commercial for a food outlet for example, and it was a small restaurant, I doubt they spent any money on it. If you trawl around on the web, you might come across it, but I doubt anyone knows where it originated from. Also, samples that are under a certain length (typically 30 seconds in many jurisdictions) are not covered by copyright - they are often deemed too small to be worthy of copyright. So apart from the voice acting and ambient music, you could probably rip and redistribute most of the samples in T:TDP, T:TMA, T:DS without any legal consequences, because the samples are either already Public Domain, they are too short to be copyrighted, the original copyright holder is unknown, or they are not distinct enough that anyone from Eidos is going to notice that they are there.

 

Most game companies use a lot of PD samples because it is cheaper than paying a foley artist to make new samples. Almost every conceivable sound effect has been done, so it is generally cheaper to use as many freely available samples, and fill the rest out with commercial sample CDs, and do foley and voice acting as a last resort.

 

Unfortunately, the voice acting and ambient music samples are definately protected by copyright, so that part of the sound crfs would not be redistributable.

 

Besides, like I've said many times, TDM should be a distinct game, and should avoid resembling Thief too much.

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I'm pretty sure our sound department has bested the rest already. The ambients are fantastic.

 

P.S. ZylonBane, TF and Onion Bob, all in the same day? Has some kind of TTLG floodgate been opened, or is ZylonBane just hounded by a harem of clowns wherever he goes?

The in-house ambients I've heard so far are just... sublime. I don't think we need the Thief originals but there are some that are fantastic, and the nostalgia factor is a biggie for me.

 

And hi u guys. \o

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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The in-house ambients I've heard so far are just... sublime. I don't think we need the Thief originals but there are some that are fantastic, and the nostalgia factor is a biggie for me.

Yah, this would just be an extra capability for those who really want to use those old sounds/voices/whatever, but don't want to risk getting a cease-and-desist letter from Eidos.

 

I've done absolutely zero D3 modding myself, so I have no idea how the asset management works. If you just rename a CRF to PK4 and drop it in the Doom3 directory, can custom missions access its contents?

Edited by ZylonBane
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