Reactos

[sparhawk]

Don't know if you know about ReactOS at http://www.reactos.org. This is an open source clone of Microsoft Windows operating system. Last time I checked it's states it was at the very beginning, and it looked like a dying project. This was about two years ago I think and I was working a bit on Wine at that time. it seemed like a great project idea but nothing that would really come to pass. Now I checked this site again and I must say I'm pretty impressed. Apparently they reorganized and started actual work. The screenshots show Unreal Turnament and a lot of other apps that I use like Xemacs, working. I'm already thinking of giving it a shot with Doom 3 and see how it works. That is definitely a project to keep track of, and if I should loose interest in TDM, this would definitely a project I would like to contribute.

[obscurus]

Cool... I think if open source software ever wants to take off in a big way and give MS a run for it's money, it has to work very hard on compatability with Windows, ie, being able to run Windows software seamlessly, be able to use windows hardware drivers easily and reliably and be generally very easy to use. Linux is great if you have the time and patience to get into it, and don't mind not being able to run comercial Windows apps or games, or use hardware that only comes with windows drivers, but for most it is perceived as a toy for geeks or only useful for servers (not my opinion, but that is a common perception). Like it or not, MS Windows has the lion's share of the computer market, and that is what dictates how other players in that market must compete.

[Dram]

...and if I should loose interest in TDM, this would definitely a project I would like to contribute.

 

[Forsaken]

I don't think anyone will drop the project now. Definately not oDDity. Your project is, softly speaking AWESOME. So let's not get worried about teammates leaving. No one in the right mind will leave such a project, if he is a real Thief fan.

[sparhawk]

Don't worry. I didn't say that I AM loosing interest, I just said that IF I WOULD loose interest ReactOS would be a project that I'm very interested in.

[Forsaken]

Well, that's what I'm trying to carry over to Dram.

[Dram]

i was just trying to make spar defend himself hehe.. i don't truly believe he will leave, at least not until the coding of tdm is done

 

But yeah, i might try reactOS too, install it on a separate partition or something, its very intriguing.

[obscurus]

Have you seen SkyOS also? not open source (low cost commercial OS in beta stage, totally built from scratch, not based on anything else), but it looks like it might have potential...

 

 

The biggest problem I have with Reactos is that they are working on the Win32 model, trying to replicate Windows XP, but by the time they have a useable, stable OS released, it will likely be so obsolete that few will want to use it.

 

They (IMO) should focus solely on building a version of a 64 bit windows clone, and focus only on hardware and technology that is currently bleeding edge, so that by the time they are finished, it will run up-to-date software on the hardware most people will then have. No need to waste time writing drivers for legacy hardware, only cutting edge stuff need be included.

 

There are plenty of operating systems out there that can be used for legacy hardware, or to run older software through emulation layers, so I think that open source operating systems would get a much more serious look in from people if they were to tout it as being cutting edge next gen stuff that will smoke Windows... If they can't do that, people will just buy Windows, because they perceive that the open source stuff is ten years behind Windows in terms of hardware and software support.

 

If people get too caught up in the idealism of open source or the constantly splintering offshoots of various forms of Linux, open source will get nowhere.

 

The phrase "divide and conquer" is very apt when discussing Linux, and Microsoft doesn't even have to actively do anything to keep Linux on the fringes - it lacks the singular focus and vision needed to pose a threat to MS' dominance. This is a shame, because the market needs some serious competition for microsoft to deal with so that it will be forced to pay attention to some of the issues that have dogged microsoft since it's inception.

 

I think Reactos is a much needed open source initiative, but they need to be careful not to get mired down in trying to support all kinds of legacy devices, and they need to keep the OS fresh and current to attract intrest from people who just want to use it without concerning themselves about the inner workings of it. And it needs to be able to run all of the most RECENT software and hardware available, not so much stuff that is already five years old.

[New Horizon]

I don't know. If they can nail Windows XP/ Server 2003 functionality down within the next year or so, they won't have much further to go to get Vista functionality. Vista was built off of sever 2003 and really shouldn't be that much of a departure. I think ReactOS could have some real potential.

[sparhawk]

I think Reactos is a much needed open source initiative, but they need to be careful not to get mired down in trying to support all kinds of legacy devices, and they need to keep the OS fresh and current to attract intrest from people who just want to use it without concerning themselves about the inner workings of it. And it needs to be able to run all of the most RECENT software and hardware available, not so much stuff that is already five years old.

 

It seems there is a missconception here. ReactOS doesn't need to suport all kind of legacy devices. That's the whole point of it. ReactOS implements all the system functions from Windows and therefore any device driver should work with ReactOS out of the box. At least that is the idea behind it. Since the driver model and all the associated API is implemented the same way that windows has it, this could work. Still, this is a huge task nevertheless, but having the sourcode to a fully compatible Windows OS has many benefits.

[OrbWeaver]

Cool... I think if open source software ever wants to take off in a big way and give MS a run for it's money, it has to work very hard on compatability with Windows, ie, being able to run Windows software seamlessly, be able to use windows hardware drivers easily and reliably and be generally very easy to use. Linux is great if you have the time and patience to get into it, and don't mind not being able to run comercial Windows apps or games, or use hardware that only comes with windows drivers, but for most it is perceived as a toy for geeks or only useful for servers (not my opinion, but that is a common perception). Like it or not, MS Windows has the lion's share of the computer market, and that is what dictates how other players in that market must compete.

 

That is playing into Microsoft's hands. As long as everybody else is slavishly copying Windows, Microsoft will always have the upper hand because their "version" of Windows is by definition the best.

 

The way to topple Microsoft, if that is indeed the aim (and for many OSS developers it is not), is to provide equivalent or better functionality than Windows and its applications, rather than bit-for-bit binary compatibility. Once enough people are using such a system, device manufacturers will be forced to write drivers for it and cutting-edge hardware will cease to be an issue.

[sparhawk]

Not neccessarily. After all, MS has a lifcylce for each version of it's OS, which doesn't really meet the customers need. NT4.0 is perfectly stable for most companies, but since it is no longer supported they aer forced to upgrade, no matter if it makes sense for them or not.

This is where ReactOS can come in, because if it is stable enough for production environments, then corporations can escape this pressure. And of course, if you want to have Direct X 25 implemented on XP, even though Microsoft doesn't support it, you can implement it on ReactOS and ignore Windows 2134.

[obscurus]

That is playing into Microsoft's hands. As long as everybody else is slavishly copying Windows, Microsoft will always have the upper hand because their "version" of Windows is by definition the best.

 

The way to topple Microsoft, if that is indeed the aim (and for many OSS developers it is not), is to provide equivalent or better functionality than Windows and its applications, rather than bit-for-bit binary compatibility. Once enough people are using such a system, device manufacturers will be forced to write drivers for it and cutting-edge hardware will cease to be an issue.

 

 

That is great in theory, but you have a chicken and egg problem - no one of consequence will want to use an open source OS if it has limited support for new hardware and software, so there will never be enough people to give hardware manufacturers enough incentive to write drivers for multiple operating systems, when there is one operating system with 92% of the market share (about what MS has). And no software companies are going to port software to multiple operating systems if there is not abig enough market to make the effort worthwhile. And don't expect hardware manufacturers to open up their hardware specifications - people would find out how many patents they were violating...

 

The only OS that could compete with MS in a real way is a closed source commercial venture that has enough money to buy access to hardware specifications (after signing NDAs of course) to write their own drivers, and who can muster the clout required to convince software companies to port their programs to OSs besides Windows or OSX.

 

OK, there are niche markets where Linux for example, is a major player (eg render farms running Maya for big film studios), but there is almost no market for say, 3D games at the moment becasue of the chicken and egg problem. Bar a handful of games, few games available for Windows, Mac or one of the consoles is also available in a Linux flavour or a FreeBSD flavour etc.

 

I use sequencing software like Sonar and Tracktion, but running a professional digital audio workstation on Linux is still a pipe dream at the moment. I'm stuck with Windows for now, but if Reactos get a useable operating system that is good enough that it would make it worthwhile uninstalling my current Win XP OS, I would be very happy.

 

 

The best way for Reactos to proceed is to get full compatability with windows binaries so that people can install drivers and software written for windows on it, and to then focus on making it better than windows by correcting as many of Microsofts mistakes as possible, and doing things that Windows can't.

[OrbWeaver]

Chicken and egg problems do get solved, it just take time. OSS use is increasing, and more and more companies will take advantage of it as the market becomes viable.

 

There is certainly a place for projects like ReactOS, but I would see them more as a stopgap measure rather than a permanent solution.

[obscurus]

Time is the problem though, because OSS typically has an inherently longer production time than commercial software (incremental updates aside) - unless the OSS is written by a full time commercially backed programming team that can keep up with closed source competitors, it will allways be years behind closed source commercial software. And to get a lot of opern source stuff working, a great deal of time has to be spent reverse engineering hardware drivers, while commercial software can usually afford to buy access to full hardware specs to write drivers quickly.

[sparhawk]

ReactOS don't need to reverse engineer any hardware drviers, beyond the ones that are need to boot the OS. After all, it is Windows binary compatible, which means that drivers for Windows should work on ReactOS as well. That's the whole point of it.

[obscurus]

that is the biggest thing going for Reactos, and will IMO give it an edge over linux when it is finished - if you can install any windows driver or software without problems, people will start migrating en masse from Windows when they realise there is a functional clone of windows for free. The only thing is, Microsoft will probalby try to tear Reactos apart with the lawyers... after all, isn't it a violation of the Windows EULA to reverse engineer Windows? I'm sure Reactos must be doing a fair bit of reverse engineering to clone Windows, so they might get themselves into a bit of legal trouble...

[sparhawk]

I'm sure Reactos must be doing a fair bit of reverse engineering to clone Windows, so they might get themselves into a bit of legal trouble...

 

Reverse engineering might help, but it is, by no way, required. I was contributing some stuff to wine and when I did that, I never needed to reverse engineer any Windows code. You can read the MSDN documentation to see how a particular function is supposed to work. Since often this documentation is wrong, you can write a small warpper that calls the function, you are interested in, with all kind of parameters, to see how it responds. With this black box approach you don't need any reverse engineering and consequently no law is breached anywhere. Until software patents kick in and new laws are passed to prevent even this kind of analyzing.

[OrbWeaver]

Time is the problem though, because OSS typically has an inherently longer production time than commercial software (incremental updates aside) - unless the OSS is written by a full time commercially backed programming team that can keep up with closed source competitors, it will allways be years behind closed source commercial software.

 

It depends on the number of developers and the amount of time spent on the project. There is nothing "inherently" slow about OSS development; if a project is slow it is because not enough time is being put into it, perhaps because few people are interested in it.

 

Projects like Blender, FireFox and Linux move very quickly. It was only a few years ago that there was no decent web browser available for Linux (most of them had problems with rendering in some way), and fonts looked absolutely crap. Now I use Firefox on all my computers and fonts in Gnome look way better than Windows.

[Ishtvan]

Ah yes, the good ole' days of using buggy Netscape on Linux...