Menu/gui Purchase Screen

[pakmannen]

Well, what is the reason for letting people drop starting gear anyway? Does it really fill a function? Imagine you start out a mission with a certain item you need to deliver to a person. Yeah it would be stupid to drop it before you start the mission, but why bother allowing it in the first place? Isn't it just unnecessary gui coding?

[Springheel]

People have requested that feature because they want to have some choice over what they take with them. Some people don't want to be forced to take weapons. Others want to try iron-manning missions with no equipment. How hard is it really to add?

[sparhawk]

Should be VERY simple. Once the inventory is in place, this should be no more than half a day. Even less.

[Gildoran]

Before the mission:

Hmm... I don't need weapons such as a sword... I'll just drop all my weapons.

In the mission:

Oh wait, I needed a sword to pry open the door. Or to cut the drapes revealing a hidden safe. Or to reach a peice of loot (or key item or something) that was on the top shelf. Etc etc.

 

IMHO, the mapper puts in the preset items to ensure that they can assume the player has those items. If the player REALLY wants to iron-man a mission without items, they should just drop the items at the start of the mission. And if they find out they need those items later, they can go back and pick them up. (or if they can't go back to the start, the mission might be badly designed)

[oDDity]

I think a mission would be badly designed if there is only one rigid way to complete a goal, which absolutely requires a weapon.

I cant remember a single instance of that in the Thief games, except for one mission where you had to knock out so many people on expert, but that wasn't a real mission, it was a kind of training mission at the start of T2.

[Darkness_Falls]

Obviously players drop starting items at their own risk.

True. The FM can load the player up with the weapons they think the player should have, and if the player wants to drop them from the menu screen, that's the player's prerogative. If they get stuck 3/4th of the way thru a mission and then find out they needed a specific tool or weapon, that's their bad luck and they'll have to start over and not drop.

 

IMHO, the mapper puts in the preset items to ensure that they can assume the player has those items.

True, but players may also figure out or devise ways to succeed in ways the FM author never thought of. Maybe we should allow the use of butcher knives that are found in kitchens (etc.) as makeshift weapons, etc.? Sorry if we already discussed.

[Springheel]

If players want to drop their equipment, then it's their fault (and poor mapping) if they can't finish the mission. I don't think we should make features to protect people from their own choices.

[Ishtvan]

I wouldn't mind if there was no option to drop them in the loadout menu, dropping them at the start of the mission works.

[oDDity]

THat's pretty stupid. and not very immersive for the player, having to spend 10 mintues dropping a sack load of equipment before he even starts. There should be a choice of not selecting it at all.

[Schatten]

I don't see the problem. Sparhawk said implementation of the drop/re-sell feature wouldn't be a problem and I guess setting up a property like LockInPurchaseScreen wouldn't be to hard to do either.

 

If the FM has an item in the purchase screen that it is needed for the mission the author could just set that to true.

 

I say go for it.

 

Oddity, re weapons required: IIRC, there were some OMs where you needed Fire Arrows to set off stuff/solve riddles

[oDDity]

Yes, but I don't think they were plot essential in any case.

[Gildoran]

All I'm saying is that there's more than one type of mission. Some are very similar to standard Thief missions, others focus on item puzzles (I'm a huge fan of Ominous Bequest - it's my idea of an almost-perfect FM). Just because because a good Thief-style maps should allow you to beat them without items doesn't mean other styles need be that way. I'd be fine with dropping things in the preload screen, so long as the map can set a minimum quantity.

[Springheel]

Dropping items at the beginning of a map is not very immersive. "Oh, I'm a master thief, but for some reason I'm carrying all these weapons. I'd better drop them here on the front steps of the mansion before I go in."

 

Besides that, are we planning on coding something to allow the player to drop a weapon in-game? Nothing like that existed in previous Thief games.

 

If map-makers design some kind of strange map that -requires- the player to have a sword or bow to finish it, they can just put one in the map somewhere for the player to find.

[Darkness_Falls]

I'm a huge fan of Ominous Bequest - it's my idea of an almost-perfect FM.

 

Hmm, hadn't heard of that one. I'll have to check it out. Though, can you give me a quick spoiler?

 

Don't say anything other than yes, or no: Is it an all out zombie fest? I don't really like zombie-laden missions.

 

If there are a few zombies, that's okay. But I don't want to spend an hour in a crypt or anything. Don't clarify and tell me, "There are just a few zombies," or "there are no zombies." I don't want that to be that spoiled. Just say yes or no to whether or not it's an undead zombie fest. Thanks!

 

PM me if necessary.

[Domarius]

Yep, Ominous Bequest. Followed by Rowena's Curse. My 2 favs.

 

I was going to support the FM author being able to lock in items of their choice, but I suppose the FM author could put the item in the level if the mission is designed to be completed with it. I guess that is what the custom is anyway.

[Gildoran]

Or they could use a script to just put it directly into the player's inventory at the mission start. But then that has the problem that the player doesn't know about those items when choosing what to buy.

[sparhawk]

Dropping items at the beginning of a map is not very immersive. "Oh, I'm a master thief, but for some reason I'm carrying all these weapons. I'd better drop them here on the front steps of the mansion before I go in."

 

The euqipment screen is not immersive by nature so it doesn't really matter. Whats so immersive by selecting teh stuf you may need?

 

If map-makers design some kind of strange map that -requires- the player to have a sword or bow to finish it, they can just put one in the map somewhere for the player to find.

 

Right. And sicne players came up with all kind of strange rules, they want to adhere to (iron man, ghosting, etc.) it's THEIR choice anyway and we shouldn't limit it purposefully, unless it severly makes problems for us implementing it.

[sparhawk]

Also the mapper could create a locker at the start of the mission, where the player can take whatever he likes.

[Ishtvan]

I really liked how Hitman2 handled this by having a safehouse/ home base map where all the equipment was stored and you walked around and picked up the stuff you would need before going out on a mission. Of course that would be something to discuss in the campaign and would not apply in general.

[Dram]

we could have a store as a model that you scroll through items and buy. Bit like tds except with:

 

1) better looking store model

2) no stupid sounding/looking shopkeepers

3) camera scrolls to item

 

either that or have Garretts home or something

[Domarius]

Actually I changed my mind;

 

Cylix of Jortul? Hello?? Any multi-campaign FMs that require a specific item AS PART OF THE PLOT are going to have to be permanently in your inventory, if the story requries you to have carried it through the mission.

 

FM authours shouldn't have to make an extra objective just to prevent you from leaving it behind, just because we decided to be all eliteist and remove the control of the FM author to dictate what you must start with and what you must drop.

 

When I say "remove" the feature, I mean that it had a good place in the previous games, it was useful, and its something we should "keep" in our version.

[Springheel]

Why is there such a push from people to 'protect' players from their own stupidity? If the FM author starts you with an unusual object, any idiot can assume that it is important to the mission. If they go ahead and choose to start the mission without it, then it's their own bloody fault.

[Domarius]

There's a line between protecting them from stupidity, and just not allowing unessecary and annoying possibilities, which is an interface thing.

 

We've got these options;

• author to lock the item in the inventory in inventory selection screen at start (as in previous games)
  
• create an extra objective (to an already potentially cluttered objective screen)
  
• force them to start with it at the start of the mission with a script (insidious, and probably less convenient to implement)
  
• think of a reason for them to find a copy of it sitting in the mission to be found
  

The first option just seems the least contrived, IMO. Also its tried and true.

[sparhawk]

If the player drops stuff that that is obviously important it's his own stupidity.

[Domarius]

To me it seems like you didn't even read my last post - to have it your way, the FM authour would have to create an extra objective to fail them if they lost it before completing the mission. Unessecarily complicating things.