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Menu/gui Purchase Screen


Springheel

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And a scrollbar would look pretty out of place in a parchment background. Scroll buttons would look fine as we've already seen.

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I feel there's no true need for the "Items Purchased" section. I always thought it was strange that T1/T2 had it. (Eliminating the near-pointless "Items Purchased" section gives us more room to play with in the GUI.) If I buy something, it should just add to my equipment total. Conversely, if I get rid of something (and I should be able to get rid of stuff (even defaults) I don't want), it should just add to the "Items For Sale" list.

 

The reason you keep the two separate is so players can't sell back starting equipment to buy things. You should be able to get rid of it if you want (which is why I added the drop method), but selling it is another matter. We don't want people selling their blackjack to buy fire arrows.

 

It also makes it easier to see how much money you've spent. I don't see any reason to get rid of it, since we'd only be gaining a line or two of space.

 

there would be something nice and more intuitive (for visual people) about being able to see all the little item icons at once in the menu

 

That simply isn't feasible with this design. And it's not necessary anyway, since simply putting your cursor over the name of the object will show you a nice large image.

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I tried to post this last night, but I think there was a problem with the server. Slow/non-responding pages.

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I'm not a big fan of scroll bars or buttons as it makes it harder to view everything as a quick summary.

T3 introduced those scrolling mission texts, which I despised.

 

I think that the object in the lower corner should indeed be a 3-D model, maybe with sepia tones as mentioned. It could still be a part of the paper by having the paper's texture applied on top of the model. Maybe even have it rotate, making it a more lively GUI. (Something like the full-motion video newspapers of Harry Potter come to mind. Just to help spice it up without going overboard.)

 

I feel there's no true need for the "Items Purchased" section. I always thought it was strange that T1/T2 had it. (Eliminating the near-pointless "Items Purchased" section gives us more room to play with in the GUI.) If I buy something, it should just add to my equipment total. Conversely, if I get rid of something (and I should be able to get rid of stuff (even defaults) I don't want), it should just add to the "Items For Sale" list. Therefore, maybe just have two sections: "Items In Inventory" and "Items For Sale", or some similar titles. Then, when you buy an item, it adds to the total in inventory.

 

I think this is a good starting point. But, in addition to the above, I feel there would be something nice and more intuitive (for visual people) about being able to see all the little item icons at once in the menu, like in T1/T2.

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It takes up more than a line or two of space in that you have a section header/title, and however many items you purchase would go there. If you bought one (1) each of all the items (fire, water, moss, broadhead, noisemaker, health potion, note, etc.) you now have many more lines of items that would need to be listed. I'm still not convinced this book idea is the best approach to take, due to the negative implications to the more visual people and that it's not yet a better (enhanced usability) design than T2's. Regardless, here's another possible route to play with for the left-hand page: Menu Concept - Darkness Falls Altered

 

It's just a quick mockup so pay no attention to the repeated items listed. Pretend those are all unique items there. (In a working example, no items would be listed more than once.)

 

The item list on the page expands as more non-default items are purchased. The "Note from Malak" is the last 'default' item, so my list starts expanding there, when the lantern is purchased. The "Lantern" is the first item purchased that was not in the player's possession already, so it has an original inventory quantity of (0) next to it.

 

PS: If items are dropped by the player by accident, we should have a way to recover those dropped items. Maybe have a tiny section called "Items Dropped" that would allow the player to pick them up again without having to buy them. We could make it a tiny section by making it a simple, comma-delimited list. Or add them to the "Items for Sale" list, but have no charge associated.

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PS: If items are dropped by the player by accident, we should have a way to recover those dropped items. Maybe have a tiny section called "Items Dropped" that would allow the player to pick them up again without having to buy them. We could make it a tiny section by making it a simple, comma-delimited list. Or add them to the "Items for Sale" list, but have no charge associated.

 

What about making the 'drop' button change to 'keep' after you drop something, so you can toggle dropping/keeping your starting items without the need for another list?

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Something like that might work, Ishtvan, but I don't think "Keep" would be the right word. "Pick Up" or "Re-Add" or "Pick Back Up" or something would be better. "Keep" implies you already have it, but you don't -- which is why I have a problem with that word.

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I like "keep" because it's short and probably fits in the same amount of space as "drop." You can mentally justify it if you want by thinking of it as something you plan to do in the future, as soon as you leave the store, I am deciding now whether I am going to drop this, or keep it, at some point between now and when I start the mission. :)

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I'm still not convinced this book idea is the best approach to take, due to the negative implications to the more visual people and that it's not yet a better (enhanced usability) design than T2's.

 

Well, everyone else seems to like it. I don't see how there are 'negative implications to more visual people'. It has a bigger graphic than any other Thief menu.

 

The item list on the page expands as more non-default items are purchased.

 

In which case you'd still need scroll arrows, so the extra few lines of saved space is irrelevant.

 

 

What about making the 'drop' button change to 'keep' after you drop something

 

I was thinking of doing just that, except changing "Drop" to "Dropped". Clicking it again would change it back.

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But if you drop something, your quantity will be zero (0). Why would you want to "keep" zero? Just looking for the logic. Or when you have 15 water arrows, drop 5.... why would you click "keep" 5 times to bring the quantity back up to 15? I dunno. I guess it could work and people would get used to it, but it just doesn't seem like the best word to use there.

 

Well, everyone else seems to like it.

It's not that I don't like it. I just feel there's a better solution out there and I don't think it's better than T2's. Here's a question that I would like everyone to think about and respond to. I don't care what the answers are, I just want honesty: Do you honestly feel that Springheel's proposed solution is a more functional, better solution than Thief 2's? Yes or no. Forget about how it "looks" visually, I'm asking about functionality and ease-of-use.

 

In which case you'd still need scroll arrows, so the extra few lines of saved space is irrelevant.

Not really and not always. Scroll arrows would only be needed on mine if you exceeded the full length of the page. With your mockup, you would only maybe get 1/2 of the vertical length of the page to work with. My mockup gives nearly a full page before scroll arrows are needed.

 

Darn -- I'll write more later, sorry.. gotta go

 

EDIT: Okay, this part:

I was thinking of doing just that, except changing "Drop" to "Dropped". Clicking it again would change it back.

I don't think "Dropped" works either, for similar reasons to "Keep". It doesn't relate to what you're doing very well, imo. Actually, come to think of it, this whole Drop/Pick Up thing is more compex than initially thought. If you have 15 of something, drop one, then the button shouldn't change to anything else; otherwise, how would you drop the remaining 14 items? There would need to be a 2nd button set up maybe. Keep "Drop" as one of them, but as soon as you drop one, open up a 2nd button that says "Pick Up" (or whatever, controversially, we want to add). Maybe just (+) and (-) icons would be better. (-) would drop the item, (+) would appear after at least one item is dropped and would allow you to re-add the item(s).

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Do you honestly feel that Springheel's proposed solution is a more functional, better solution than Thief 2's? Yes or no. Forget about how it "looks" visually, I'm asking about functionality and ease-of-use.

Not really and not always. Scroll arrows would only be needed on mine if you exceeded the full length of the

 

Yes, I think this is definately on the right path. Of course at this stage, it can't be expected to be perfect as we have no way of play testing it yet. I will add though, that the altered concept you makes better use of the space and I would suggest adopting something similar for the next revision.

 

At any rate. It's shaping up to be great. Good job Spring and DF for the altered concept. Merging the two will yield an even stronger interface.

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I don't think "Dropped" works either, for similar reasons to "Keep". It doesn't relate to what you're doing very well, imo. Actually, come to think of it, this whole Drop/Pick Up thing is more compex than initially thought. If you have 15 of something, drop one, then the button shouldn't change to anything else; otherwise, how would you drop the remaining 14 items? There would need to be a 2nd button set up maybe. Keep "Drop" as one of them, but as soon as you drop one, open up a 2nd button that says "Pick Up" (or whatever, controversially, we want to add). Maybe just (+) and (-) icons would be better. (-) would drop the item, (+) would appear after at least one item is dropped and would allow you to re-add the item(s).

 

Why not just 'equip' and 'unequip'?

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@Pak: I don't necessarily agree with being able to sell defaulted items, in general. I'd prefer not to make it a marketplace where you try to acquire as many items through a mission in order to sell them for money. Or rather, that you you sell off all your broadheads you're defaulted with just so you can buy a health potion, etc. Bartering and having a mini-economy sim is one thing that bothered me about Thief 3, and Diablo II. In Diablo II, I got obsessive compulsive about taking every last thing from all the battles just so I could teleport back to camp and get gold for every single item that I possibly could.

 

Well, everyone else seems to like it. I don't see how there are 'negative implications to more visual people'. It has a bigger graphic than any other Thief menu.

By 'visual people', I mean those who learn and understand what to do based on visual communication. In school, teachers are learning how to communicate to students more effectively by understanding there are multiple sensory types out there: auditory, visual, kinesthetic, whatever. So the fact that your menu has a bigger graphic is not what I mean. In Thief 2's menu, every item has a small icon graphics showing in one glance what all the items are. Visual people would be able to tune into these graphics (more than the text) and more quickly and easily see what they want/need to do; and it would, therefore, be a more appealing interface for them (usability-wise), imo. Your menu has a lot of text on it and the only time you see the graphic icons are when you hover over an item. This may be more appealing to those who learn more through text and reading, but not those who like and understand better through pictures. Thief 2's menu tackles at least a couple different sensory types well, imo. I feel your menu only hits one user group and is why I feel it is going down the road of being less intuitive and usable.

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The reason you keep the two separate is so players can't sell back starting equipment to buy things. You should be able to get rid of it if you want (which is why I added the drop method), but selling it is another matter. We don't want people selling their blackjack to buy fire arrows.

 

That's not really a problem because this can also be handled by code. After all, we know how much the player got as default and we can simply refuse a sell request if the number reaches it.

Gerhard

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I just feel there's a better solution out there and I don't think it's better than T2's. Here's a question that I would like everyone to think about and respond to. I don't care what the answers are, I just want honesty: Do you honestly feel that Springheel's proposed solution is a more functional, better solution than Thief 2's? Yes or no.

 

First of all, since when does the menu have to be MORE functional than T2? Are our main menu concepts "more functional" than the T2 main menu? As long as it is functional, simple and stays true to the style we've set for the other menus, I don't see the problem.

 

But if you think you can come up with something better, please do.

 

Not really and not always. Scroll arrows would only be needed on mine if you exceeded the full length of the page. With your mockup, you would only maybe get 1/2 of the vertical length of the page to work with. My mockup gives nearly a full page before scroll arrows are needed.

 

How do you figure that? All you've done is save the line where the second title was, along with one or two lines where starting equipment and purchased equipment may be duplicated. That's about three or four lines, max. You're still going to need scroll arrows for long lists.

 

By 'visual people', I mean those who learn and understand what to do based on visual communication. In school, teachers are learning how to communicate to students more effectively

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the concept. I'm a teacher myself, as well as a visual learner. But I didn't realize we were trying to design menus to cater to all the different styles of learning out there. Guess we should add some voice-over sound effects so we don't alienate auditory learners? :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, if you have a better idea, show us a concept for it.

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First of all, since when does the menu have to be MORE functional than T2? Are our main menu concepts "more functional" than the T2 main menu? As long as it is functional, simple and stays true to the style we've set for the other menus, I don't see the problem.

It doesn't have to be. With user interfaces, I just always try to look for improving usability rather than taking steps back. I work on an intranet at work and any time we change the user interface, we try to make things more functional for users, which is why I'm maybe more sensitive to this. Sorry, I guess some might consider it a fault.

 

But if you think you can come up with something better, please do.

It shouldn't always be "well if you can do better than me then do it." I'm not saying I can do better than you, I just bring up my feedback. If oDDity creates a RavenHarp model, but we tell oDDity that it should have a more eery look to it, should he always reply with such a quote?

 

How do you figure that? All you've done is save the line where the second title was, along with one or two lines where starting equipment and purchased equipment may be duplicated. That's about three or four lines, max. You're still going to need scroll arrows for long lists.

3-4 lines of your 'big font' lines. It was mentioned that a smaller font would be better, in which case it would be several more than 3 or 4. I also removed the graphic icon that separated the two sections.

 

Yes, I'm well aware of the concept. I'm a teacher myself, as well as a visual learner. But I didn't realize we were trying to design menus to cater to all the different styles of learning out there.

Oh well. When I disagree, our discussions always seem to come around to 'Do what you will, SH. You're the bossman.' So, again, do what you will; since I'm always the only one who disagrees w/ you.

 

Guess we should add some voice-over sound effects so we don't alienate auditory learners?

Umm, yeah ~ that's exactly what I was thinking. And maybe even have a textured screen that the kinesthetics can feel. :rolleyes:

 

If I come up with anything, I'll let you know. Otherwise, if no one else has anything, then your mockup reigns supreme and that's fine. It's not the end of the world.

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3-4 lines of your 'big font' lines. It was mentioned that a smaller font would be better, in which case it would be several more than 3 or 4. I also removed the graphic icon that separated the two sections.

 

?? If the font is smaller (and I said it would be), then you're still only saving 3 or 4 lines, because the lines you're removing are now smaller as well. Not only that, but you have even less need to remove them, because everything else fits into a smaller space. Still don't see the logic in your reasoning.

 

t shouldn't always be "well if you can do better than me then do it." I'm not saying I can do better than you, I just bring up my feedback. If oDDity creates a RavenHarp model, but we tell oDDity that it should have a more eery look to it, should he always reply with such a quote?

 

Suggesting a modification is different than saying you don't like the entire concept. And as a concept artist it's not like this is outside your area of exertise, like asking you to code a better lightgem or something. So if you're saying you don't like the whole 'parchment theme', or that this design isn't functional, then there's no reason you shouldn't provide an alternative.

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@Pak: I don't necessarily agree with being able to sell defaulted items, in general. I'd prefer not to make it a marketplace where you try to acquire as many items through a mission in order to sell them for money.

That's why you should only be able to sell them for very little money. I'm not saying this is a great idea, but I'm not sure if it is actually nessecary to have both a "purchased items" and "starging gear" list. It's more logical to me to have a "inventory" and a "for sale" list. And the selling starting equipment for 1 piece of gold is just a way to eliminate the need of programming an extra button.

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It's not absolutely necessary to keep the default items separate from the purchased items, but it doesn't cause any harm either. We won't be short on space once we finalize the design, and it is a handy way to keep track of what you just bought.

 

Visually, it also breaks one long list into two short ones, which is usually easier to digest.

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I have no problem with it visually. Only logically :) Nah, it's not a big deal. It might add some programming work to have more lists, and it will probably be trickier to make the gui if the lists are supposed to size-adjust based on how many items are in them etc. But other than that there's no real problem with having the lists separate. Only a matter of personal preferences.

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  • 1 month later...

IMHO, there shouldn't be a drop option for initial items. If it's part of the starting equipment, it was put there because the mapper thought it was absolutely needed. If you don't need it, you can just drop it in-game. Allowing items to be dropped before-hand could make it impossible to beat a well-designed mission before you ever started. Also, this makes the interface simpler.

 

Personally, I think if the interface is going to look like a book, I'd love to see it look a bit like the sort of spreadsheet an old shopkeeper might use; Have your initial starting money at the top, then the amount of money each set of items removes, then have the remaining money at the bottom. EG:

 

Money:

3000

Broadhead Arrows (x25)

-250

Holy Water (x3)

-450

Fire Arrows (x2)

-600

Tip

-350

--------------------------------

1350

 

I know this is a lot like what you did, but I like to both know how much money I started with, and how much remains.

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IMHO, there shouldn't be a drop option for initial items. If it's part of the starting equipment, it was put there because the mapper thought it was absolutely needed.

 

There are lots of items included simply because it's tradition to do so. Do you think mappers believe a swod is 'absolutely needed' to get through a mission or is just there because it's tradition?

 

Obviously players drop starting items at their own risk.

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