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Rope Arrow


Entropy

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I noticed that, in the news post, it was indicated that it is currently possible to swing on the ropes implemented in The Dark Mod. I'm not sure if the team has already implemented this, or has been planning on implementing this, but I figured it would be of great convenience if one could shoot a rope-arrow whilst holding onto the rope, and thus entertain the ability to jump and swing from the deployed rope from the player's initial position. Midst clutching the end of the rope airborne, if the player does exceed a certain directional speed while the rope is not, lengthwise, fully protracted, then the player should fall from the rope (just as, in a real life situation, where one is falling on a rope not yet entirely drawn-out (and thus not yet following the peak arc of the rope's circular and most outward potential), one would lose hold of a rope once the directional-force of the person clutching the outward-extreme of the rope had exceeded the person's grapple threshold).

 

Does this seem feasible?

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The news update says that the _ropes_ swing, not that you can swing on them. You can swing on them, actually, but not very effectively. We do have plans for greater rope physics, but not likely for the first release of the mod.

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@Woah:

 

There have been some "experiments" along those lines, and some things happen to work with the current setup, like grabbing the end of a hanging rope while standing on the ground, running back, then jumping into the air to swing forward on it. Other actions, like grabbing the end of a rope and jumping off of something, don't work, and will require significant changes to our rope climbing code and our 'grabbing things' code.

 

I think it would be really nice if we could get that type of rope physics working, and I hope to do it sometime in the future, but right now there are more important basic gameplay tasks that have to get done.

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@Woah:

 

There have been some "experiments" along those lines, and some things happen to work with the current setup, like grabbing the end of a hanging rope while standing on the ground, running back, then jumping into the air to swing forward on it. Other actions, like grabbing the end of a rope and jumping off of something, don't work, and will require significant changes to our rope climbing code and our 'grabbing things' code.

 

I think it would be really nice if we could get that type of rope physics working, and I hope to do it sometime in the future, but right now there are more important basic gameplay tasks that have to get done.

 

Understood, and I entirely agree that there are much more important things that should take precedence over extravagances like such :)

 

Another question I have, though, is: Will AI within the game notice dangling rope arrows and become suspicious (and perhaps possess the common sense to look upwards)? If so, will the player have the capacity to conceal such a suspicion (For example, retaining the ability to reel the rope upwards, around the arm)?

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That's a valid question, though retreiving the rope arrow so that the rope dissapears would suffice.

 

Well, what I'm referring to is the situation where you're hanging at the top of the rope, and thus suspended without anywhere else to go but down. Often in Thief, I would be caught in an urgent situation like this where the only cover available was up above in the shadows of the ceiling, and therefore I would utilize a rope arrows to hide there. But it bothered me when the AI would nonchalantly walk right by the rope and simply mutter something along the lines of "Well that's odd." In the "undumbing" of AI that seems to be a crucial part of this modification, I believe that Artificial Intelligence within the game should notice abnormalities like ropes miraculously draping from the ceiling and, furthermore, should take much more significant actions in relation to such things.

 

But, as the AI gets smarter, some of the player's abilities also need to be extended, as it becomes excrutiatingly frustrating for the player when they are inable to perform simple abilities that would relieve them from an otherwise detrimental or inescapable situation. I, personally, believe that the ability to "reel" the rope up and out of the AI's view is one of those simple abilities, but such a capacity would only be one of significance and worthiness if the DarkMod Development team plans to render the AI more responsive to the bizzare, dangling ropes that drape in the clear view of these AI characters in Thief games.

 

EDIT: Separated into two paragraphs for better read-ability.

Edited by woah
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Bit about falling off rope

Woah, that is a pretty silly idea IMO, here is why.

 

All you have to do is wrap a rope around your hand, you may tear your arm off, but you won't lose your grip. I would therefore propose to just use it as falling damage. So if you fall too far downward when you only move so far forward you get hurt.

 

In other words they would have to see what you velocity in the tangential direction of the arc was and apply damage, but you definitely would not lose your grip.

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Woah, that is a pretty silly idea IMO, here is why.

 

All you have to do is wrap a rope around your hand, you may tear your arm off, but you won't lose your grip. I would therefore propose to just use it as falling damage. So if you fall too far downward when you only move so far forward you get hurt.

 

In other words they would have to see what you velocity in the tangential direction of the arc was and apply damage, but you definitely would not lose your grip.

 

I'm quite positive that you would let go of the rope before it tears your arm off, be the process a conscious move or one out of involuntary action as a result of shere pain or bodily damage. And even if someone had accumulated damage to themself from such a stunt, the dislocation of joints or simple physical breakage would undoubtly cause someone to let go, involuntarily.

 

And in a situation where the intent is to swing from one end and release grip at the other (which is really the only reason you would perform such a feat, anyways), it would be idiocy to rap the rope around in your body in a method that would make the release of grip even the least bit complicated; release of grip needs to be precise and, therefore, any substantial impediments should be avoided. If it is someone's intention to swing from one ledge to another, one does not and cannot restrain themself to the point that an arm would rip off in place of them losing their grip; it has to be simple to let go.

Edited by woah
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I'm sure we will have AI notice ropes if they're hanging somewhere obvious. If they spot the player on the rope they'll sound the alarm and start throwing/shooting things at him. Even if they don't spot the player (on an abandoned rope) they'll be highly suspicious, no doubt.

 

As for a player coiling a rope up after him, we haven't discussed it. I personally wouldn't be in favour of it--doesn't sound like something that would be easy to do in RL, and it would be complicated handling it in game as well. If players are going to use a rope arrow to climb out of sight, then they need to either climb to the top and get off (allowing them to collect the arrow), or they need to put the rope somewhere the AI isn't like to see it (in a shadow or behind a pillar).

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What about the option of being able to pull on the bottom of the rope to dislodge the arrow from the place you shot it at? An example that this would have come in handy is say, you shot a rope arrow in the wrong place (you missed your target or something) and you didnt waste the arrow, it simply got stuck somewhere and extended the rope, just not where you intended. If the place where it went is high up (high enough to cause damage if you fell from there) would you climb up the rope to the top, and grab the arrow so as not to waste it? Or would you rather not take falling damage and just accept the fact that the arrow is wasted and unretrievable without hurting yourself. Could it be possible to pull on the end of the rope and yank the arrow out of the wood where you shot it, that way it falls down and you just catch it or pick it up off the ground? Of course not high the list of priorities that'd be nice to have would it not?

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What about the option of being able to pull on the bottom of the rope to dislodge the arrow from the place you shot it at? An example that this would have come in handy is say, you shot a rope arrow in the wrong place (you missed your target or something) and you didnt waste the arrow, it simply got stuck somewhere and extended the rope, just not where you intended. If the place where it went is high up (high enough to cause damage if you fell from there) would you climb up the rope to the top, and grab the arrow so as not to waste it? Or would you rather not take falling damage and just accept the fact that the arrow is wasted and unretrievable without hurting yourself. Could it be possible to pull on the end of the rope and yank the arrow out of the wood where you shot it, that way it falls down and you just catch it or pick it up off the ground? Of course not high the list of priorities that'd be nice to have would it not?

 

Rope arrows are a somewhat hot commodity. That's why it sucks so hard when you lose one. I don't think it would make sense if you could pull the rope arrow out by tugging on the bottom of the rope. I wouldn't climb the bloody thing.

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In the alpha 0.002 build the rope arrows seem to be of fixed length. Is this a temporary thing or are they going to be like this in the real game?

 

I actually quite like the fixed length idea, as it makes it more challenging to position the arrow correctly and is more realistic since there is no magic rope extension involved.

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In the alpha 0.002 build the rope arrows seem to be of fixed length. Is this a temporary thing or are they going to be like this in the real game?

 

I actually quite like the fixed length idea, as it makes it more challenging to position the arrow correctly and is more realistic since there is no magic rope extension involved.

 

No, that is just a placeholder. A fixed length rope arrow would be of little use. If it's too short, you can't climb to great heights...if it's too long, then you have an excess of rope and each section would add a performance hit. Ishtvan would like be better at answering this question, but I think there is some kind of calculation done before the rope deploys. When the calculation has determined the appropriate length, the rope is created. Just guessing about that though. :)

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