Rope Arrow

[sparhawk]

Correct. If you shoot a rope into a ledge a little above ground, then the rope will not go into the ground. If youo shoot it into a three story building at the top, it is probably about two and a half stories long.

[sxotty]

I'm quite positive that you would let go of the rope before it tears your arm off, be the process a conscious move or one out of involuntary action as a result of shere pain or bodily damage. And even if someone had accumulated damage to themself from such a stunt, the dislocation of joints or simple physical breakage would undoubtly cause someone to let go, involuntarily.

 

And in a situation where the intent is to swing from one end and release grip at the other (which is really the only reason you would perform such a feat, anyways), it would be idiocy to rap the rope around in your body in a method that would make the release of grip even the least bit complicated; release of grip needs to be precise and, therefore, any substantial impediments should be avoided. If it is someone's intention to swing from one ledge to another, one does not and cannot restrain themself to the point that an arm would rip off in place of them losing their grip; it has to be simple to let go.

Woah, I do not believe you are aware of all the things that would go o in such a situation.

 

It is easy to wrap a rope around a hand and pressure on it will only tighten the rope around the hand, letting go however is still easy at the end of the swing b/c the pressure is lessened, but it would be impossible at the bottom. As to the "people would let go b/c of the pain" well there was a guy who died climbing when he fell with a rope that was wrapped around his arm and tore it off. If you have ever tied a clove hitch or any type of hitch you would understand what I am saying. You should actually appreciate what I did, which is solve the dillema of how this could be coded to actually reflect reality with minimum effort on the part of those involved. When I last climbed the Grand Teton, a few days before a guide had fallen with a rope wrapped around his shoulder and once again he did not "let go" it simply tore him apart, but if the rope is wrapped you are not going to "let go" until you have already born the brunt of the pain and basically destroyed your body's ability to grasp. So yes it is possible that after you dislocate your shoulder elbow, and maybe retain your flacid arm connected to your body then the rope might slip from your limpid grasp, but it will not come out at the point of impact.

[woah]

Woah, I do not believe you are aware of all the things that would go o in such a situation.

 

It is easy to wrap a rope around a hand and pressure on it will only tighten the rope around the hand, letting go however is still easy at the end of the swing b/c the pressure is lessened, but it would be impossible at the bottom. As to the "people would let go b/c of the pain" well there was a guy who died climbing when he fell with a rope that was wrapped around his arm and tore it off. If you have ever tied a clove hitch or any type of hitch you would understand what I am saying. You should actually appreciate what I did, which is solve the dillema of how this could be coded to actually reflect reality with minimum effort on the part of those involved. When I last climbed the Grand Teton, a few days before a guide had fallen with a rope wrapped around his shoulder and once again he did not "let go" it simply tore him apart, but if the rope is wrapped you are not going to "let go" until you have already born the brunt of the pain and basically destroyed your body's ability to grasp. So yes it is possible that after you dislocate your shoulder elbow, and maybe retain your flacid arm connected to your body then the rope might slip from your limpid grasp, but it will not come out at the point of impact.

 

I agree.

[sparhawk]

I always appreciate it if somebody quotes half a kilometer of text and then writes something like 'I agree' below it.

[Taffer36]

Yay first post.

 

When AI's see a dangling rope in the middle of a hallway are they simply going to go into search mode and walk around the rope? I think it would be realistic for them to walk towards the rope and yank on it, causing the unsuspecting thief to fall down along with the rope arrow. And will TDM get rid of the problem where guards will always go back to patrolling? It is very ridiculous that after finding four dead bodies and searching for a while that a guard will eventually return to their normal patrol. In real life they are going to run off or alert others, and if all else fails lock themselves somewhere safe.

[Ishtvan]

When AI's see a dangling rope in the middle of a hallway are they simply going to go into search mode and walk around the rope? I think it would be realistic for them to walk towards the rope and yank on it, causing the unsuspecting thief to fall down along with the rope arrow.

We talked about this, but there is a logical problem. If the rope arrow could pull out from the place it's anchored when an AI yanked on it, how would it ever be able to support your weight when you jump on and grab it?

 

And will TDM get rid of the problem where guards will always go back to patrolling? It is very ridiculous that after finding four dead bodies and searching for a while that a guard will eventually return to their normal patrol.

We are planning some higher level AI states that will have them alter their high-level goals depending on what happens in the world around them, including finding dead bodies.

 

In real life they are going to run off or alert others, and if all else fails lock themselves somewhere safe.

This behavior might work for servants, but I don't think the game would be very challenging if the guards locked themselves in a closet at the first sight of blood . More likely they would change up their patrol routes, maybe patrol in groups of at least two to watch eachother's back, maybe fall back to guard the most high priority targets, or guard the exits to make sure the murderer doesn't get out.

[Taffer36]

Yes, I understand the issue with the rope arrow, but if you want to talk about logic you have to consider that you would not be able to climb a rope held in place only by an arrow in the first place. Or the question of how can you take a rope arrow out of the wood by simply pulling on the arrow (frobbing) but it can support all of your weight. Or the reason why you can pull on the arrow itself to dislodge it but somehow pulling the rope doesn't make sense... now I'm just rambling. I'm sure all this has been discussed to death.

 

It would kinda strange having a guard dance around the rope arrow without trying something with the rope at all. Maybe he could try to pull on it, but fail? I don't know what would be realistic. What would you do if you saw a rope in front of you and pulling on it did nothing?

 

You're right, we don't want the guards to be pansies.

[New Horizon]

Yes, I understand the issue with the rope arrow, but if you want to talk about logic you have to consider that you would not be able to climb a rope held in place only by an arrow in the first place. Or the question of how can you take a rope arrow out of the wood by simply pulling on the arrow (frobbing) but it can support all of your weight. Or the reason why you can pull on the arrow itself to dislodge it but somehow pulling the rope doesn't make sense... now I'm just rambling. I'm sure all this has been discussed to death.

 

It would kinda strange having a guard dance around the rope arrow without trying something with the rope at all. Maybe he could try to pull on it, but fail? I don't know what would be realistic. What would you do if you saw a rope in front of you and pulling on it did nothing?

 

You're right, we don't want the guards to be pansies.

 

First and foremost, we have to consider the gameplay implications. For everything we add...it means we have to find a way to balance the gameplay.

 

Ideally, we want to focus on taking classic thief style gameplay and have it evolve to a logical level. Everything shouldn't need to be taken to a ridiculous level of difficulty. If we do, there will be no point in having any gameplay tools at all. The AI will foil you every time.

 

As for the rope arrow. We don't know how the player releases it from the wood. It's simply understood that it happens. Perhaps there is a release mechanism on the arrow that allows the player to remove it more easily from the wood. It doesn't really need to be bogged down with explanation, if the gameplay delivers, it will be fun and accepted.

[Belceburro]

As for the rope arrow. We don't know how the player releases it from the wood. It's simply understood that it happens. Perhaps there is a release mechanism on the arrow that allows the player to remove it more easily from the wood. It doesn't really need to be bogged down with explanation, if the gameplay delivers, it will be fun and accepted.

 

I agree, maybe we can suppose the arrow contains a releasing mechanism that must be triggered from the arrow itself, so it is not possible to release it pulling the rope.

 

Also I agree to fix maximum length of the rope.

 

And concerning the reaction to the rope by the AI, it should be taken as an evidence of there is someone sneaking around, so they should react as if they found a corpse. Servants maybe only must find it strange and go find reinforcements but in a more patient way.

Finding a moss arrow in the middle of a room must be also strong evidence of your presence .

[Gildoran]

Personally, I think seeing a rope should be about like seeing an unconscious body or something extremely valuable missing, but seeing a patch of moss should more heavily depend on the sort of room. Outdoors would have no effect. In most indoor areas it would probably just be a curiousity, and raise alertness without guards suspecting a thief. In certain special indoor areas that are heavily guarded (e.g. a bank or museum) a patch of moss would cause guards to scramble into position and start sweeps of the area. Just my personal oppinion though.

[bob_arctor]

But then don't you need a "clearing up" acid arrow or something? To remove the moss?

With the rope arrows if the AI can see it then we need a way of determining the length of the rope in game, so that you see a guard below so you wind up the rope... that's not really doable.

 

The fact is people have been playing Thief since 1998 so they will accept some unreal elements as part of the game. We all do in games, the concept of health bars, quests, magic, you just don't think about them.

So maybe just let some things go. No-one will notice if you immerse them properly in the game.

Put it this way: I didn't care about hitting people in the face or backside in TII, then my friends saw it, and could not take it seriously at all. Mind you I always have hated the temptation to sit in the dark and lean forward jumping up and down swinging my blackjack...

[Taffer36]

Yah, first and foremost is gameplay. I'm just saying that I don't want a guard to go into search mode and walk in circles around the rope until he/she just gives up and walks away. Sure, you could immerse yourself in the original thieves, but c'mon, there were times where I just had to say, "Give me a break." The more realistic, the better immersion. Of course, the goal is to find the middle ground between realism and gameplay.

 

The idea of a release mechanism on the arrow itself is good enough for me. But I'm still wondering what others think about my question. In real life, if you are a guard just patrolling an area as you have been doing day after day, and you suddenly find a rope dangling from the ceiling, what would you do?

[Darkness_Falls]

The fact is people have been playing Thief since 1998 so they will accept some unreal elements as part of the game.

::cheers:: Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself

 

PS: We've been having all these discussions behind-the-scenes, too...

[bob_arctor]

Well it was just a continuation in thought from that Escapist article about accepting quests to find dogs from strangers. Someone tried it out in the street in real life.

[sparhawk]

And what happened?

[Dram]

...the guy gave him the dog and he could see quest completed floating in front of him...

[bob_arctor]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/30/25

 

I looked at the "Back issues" page, there are millions of them, they churn 'em out quicker than I can read them.

Mind you most of it isn't worth reading. It's all a bit too MMORPG, a bit too America-centric (games= product.... ) in subject and language, a bit too focused on pen and paper RPG and board games.