Starforce

[Al3xand3r]

I dunno why you started replying nice enough but then resorted to just insulting me. I'm just here responding to things you guys have said, always accepting that I'm not very knowledgable at all, but at the same time trying to tell YOU that you are not knowledgeable enough for a debate like this either (you admitted you have no idea even what the HL2 SDK includes). If I'm a fanboy for doing that then you also are a fanboy for being just as persistent in giving me things to respond to. And in pretty insulting ways I might add.

 

You keep bashing HL2's ability to be modded alongside bashing me for even trying to defend it, when I keep admitting that there are things about HL2 I don't know, something which you also do but still resort to bashing it/me...

 

When I say it could be possible to replace the physics engine in HL2, you tell me that wasn't the point. Well if that wasn't the point why didn't you give another direct example of something you can do with Doom 3 that you can't do with Half-Life 2 which would show the point instead of enable me to say that it may be possible to do in HL2 as well?

 

Anyway, since you mentioned the scripting engine, Garry's Mod has also implemented LUA scripting which allows you to make "mods within the mod" using LUA, and was added to give people the ability to make fun things without learning a tough programming language. No, I don't know how flexible it is or whatever you might wanna talk about.

 

So, yeah, physics engine wasn't the point, now you'll tell me adding scripting engines wasn't the point, and you'll eventually finally reach a point that I have no related answer to (most likely because I'm not a programmer rather than you being actually right), just so you can feel you have achieved a victory. And probably not waste any time in calling me a fanboy once again, trying to make it as if I'm the one being superioristic (yeah, I don't even know if that's a word, you get my point).

 

So, here you are, arguing with someone who is not a coder, desperately trying to show how Doom 3 is superior in whatever way, and on top of that insulting that someone when he seems to be doing nothing you are not (except doing it for the other "side").

 

Also, please don't talk about the reasons behind 400+ teams having chosen Half-Life 2 to mod since you can't know that reason unless you have personaly asked all of them. Calling them all fanboys just like that is, well, incredibly stupid. If anything, the main reason I can imagine for someone modding Half-Life 2 despite finding it lacking in engine capability would be the huge player community. On top of the fact they bought HL2 but possibly didn't buy Doom 3. Yeah, this is a point you could have said against me, but I'm bringing it up instead. You can feel free to just randomly insult people you don't know, I'm sure it's not the first (or second, you did it to me after all) time you do it.

[Gildoran]

Let me try to rephrase my point to see if I can make it clearer: if you wanted HL2 physics to work with altered gravity, or non-euclidean geometry or some other feature that the designers never thought of, you'd have to scrap it and replace it with another system. It would be difficult or impossible to build off of what has already been done, so adding new features to HL2 physics would be a complete pain and would require a lot of work.

 

With Doom 3, you can tweak the physics and add any missing features without having to recode it from scratch. For example, the original D3 game didn't have water, so it was unneccessary to include water physics, but we've added code to the physics engine to take bouyancy and friction with liquids into account. The point of me mentioning this, is not that it was possible to do water physics in D3. The point is that it was possible to cleanly extend the D3 physics engine to do new things with minimal effort.

[Al3xand3r]

I got it, I just don't like being insulted for no reason (yeah yeah it wasn't you). Though even so you are still semi-speculating as you also don't have experience with the SDK.

 

Since it would be possible to replace the physics engine in Half-Life 2, it may also be possible to make it behave in different ways via external (not actually messing with the engine's code) means. Perhaps not the most ideal way but perhaps achievable. I wouldn't know. Would you?

[Vadrosaul]

Crackers crack protections because the can. Downloaders download it, because they don't want to buy it. Major difference. For crackers it can be either a business or the fun of it, but I doubt that most crackers do it to avoid the sale.

Sorry meant to say downloaders. Most downloads come with a crack nowadays, either that or there is that site (which I will not mention here) that is a haven for the crackers to deposit their goods for the downloaders.

[Gildoran]

I got it, I just don't like being insulted for no reason (yeah yeah it wasn't you). Though even so you are still semi-speculating as you also don't have experience with the SDK.

I suspect Sparhawk may have snapped at you because he's tired of (I'm not saying you're one of these people) idiots who confuse the capabilities of an engine with the style of a particular game that runs on it. A classic example, is people who think that HL2 can handle large open areas better than D3... HL2 and D3 both use CSG engines, so they handle outdoor areas in the same way, and with approximately equal performance. (on the other hand Farcry is better at rendering outdoor areas than D3 or HL2, though more cumbersome for indoor areas)

 

Since it would be possible to replace the physics engine in Half-Life 2, it may also be possible to make it behave in different ways via external (not actually messing with the engine's code) means. Perhaps not the most ideal way but perhaps achievable. I wouldn't know. Would you?

Having to replace the whole physics code is exactly what I'm saying is bad.

[Al3xand3r]

I got it... I'll rephrase something here in case it helps get what I tried to say accross..

[...]it may also be possible to make the already implemented physics engine behave in different ways via external (not actually messing with the engine's code) means (and not with completely replacing it)[...]

[Gildoran]

It sounds like you're describing a hack, which is again Badly Designed Programming.

[sparhawk]

I dunno why you started replying nice enough but then resorted to just insulting me. I'm just here responding to things you guys have said, always accepting that I'm not very knowledgable at all, but at the same time trying to tell YOU that you are not knowledgeable enough for a debate like this either (you admitted you have no idea even what the HL2 SDK includes). If I'm a fanboy for doing that then you also are a fanboy for being just as persistent in giving me things to respond to. And in pretty insulting ways I might add.

 

If you can't take critizism, then you should probably stop posting snide remeakrs, about how smart we are and such crap, when we are just disussing technical issues.

 

You keep bashing HL2's ability to be modded alongside bashing me for even trying to defend it, when I keep admitting that there are things about HL2 I don't know, something which you also do but still resort to bashing it/me...

 

I did not bash HL2 I was merely pointing out that there is a limit what you can do without the sourcecode.

 

 

When I say it could be possible to replace the physics engine in HL2, you tell me that wasn't the point. Well if that wasn't the point why didn't you give another direct example of something you can do with Doom 3 that you can't do with Half-Life 2 which would show the point instead of enable me to say that it may be possible to do in HL2 as well?

 

The point was not that we would want to replace it, the point was that we could do it, if it were not suitable enough.

 

So, here you are, arguing with someone who is not a coder, desperately trying to show how Doom 3 is superior in whatever way,

 

We were not talking about Doom 3 specifically, we were talking about the comapnies behind it, and what they do for the community. You argued that id does nothing, even though they give away their complete sourcecode for free, which is the most important thing for any program and not done by any other successfull game company, I heard so far.

 

Also, please don't talk about the reasons behind 400+ teams having chosen Half-Life 2 to mod since you can't know that reason unless you have personaly asked all of them.

 

You don't know the difference between a statistical argument and point argument. I don't have to ask 400 teams just to get an opinion. I was pointing out though, that I noticed a tendency on boards and modders that I talked to, that was indiciating this. I did also not say that it was a stupid choice for all mods to use HL2, because I also pointed out that the technical aspects of the engine should be what lets you choose your engine. When I talked to other moders, oder to moders who quit modding for D3 and switched to HL2, the reason was in many cases NOT because the engine offered so much more. We also went through the process of evaluating wether we should switch to HL2 engine, or to Q4, so we had this argument even within our team as well.

 

Calling them all fanboys just like that is, well, incredibly stupid. If anything, the main reason I can imagine for someone modding Half-Life 2 despite finding it lacking in engine capability would be the huge player community.

 

Of course. That would be at least another valid aspect, but somehow I doubt that it would be eral driving force. It depends on how long it really takes to complete your mod. If you spend several years on a single project, then you cant really motivate yourself with the fanbase. You have to do it, because you enjoy the work and not because you want to please some anoymous fancrowd. I doubt that many (of the more complex) mods were completed with that kind of motivation.

[sparhawk]

Since it would be possible to replace the physics engine in Half-Life 2, it may also be possible to make it behave in different ways via external (not actually messing with the engine's code) means. Perhaps not the most ideal way but perhaps achievable. I wouldn't know. Would you?

 

That depends on how it is implemented in the HL2 environment. In Doom 3 the code is as you would write it if you just write it for yourself. Even though it is cleanly modelled and quite well written as well as easy to understand, this is not a good way to do it, if you want your clients to extend the system. If you want to have a clean seperation between client code and your own, the best way is to write it as an API. If HL2 is written that way, it could work. If it is written similar as D3 was, then it will almost be impossible. Since the code for D3 is available, this is not a problem though, because we can modify the original code to implement our own stuff.

 

To illustrate what I mean:

 

If you want to render a movie inside the Netscape browser (or you can take the Internet Explorer as well, it doesn't really matter), you have to open a movie file, read the file into memory and output the stream on a window surface. You could do this just like a wrote it above. This method is easy to program, but not very extensible. If you want to add another movie format, which is different, then you would have to do the same procedure again and again. And of course you would be responsible to retrieve the data yourself, so if you want to support movies over the network you would need to write the download code yourself and include it completely.

Another method would be to write an API, that allows you to get access to the resources the original application is already using. So in our example, Netscape would provide various functions, like drawing on a window surface, reading data from an inputstream no matter where it comes from (web, file, etc.) and so on. In this case you can easily write your code as a plugin. You don't need to handel everything yourself, you just have to write the stuff that is needed for your specific application. In this case it would be enough to decode the stream and provide it on the surface, but you would not need to write network protocols like FTP or HTTP transfer because Netscape already knows these and you can access these functions and use them for your own stuff.

 

Doom 3 was written in both ways. The render engine was written like that API, because it needed to be protected. The game itself was written as the frist example. A complete, self containing piece of code. Since HL2 doesn't provide the full sourcecode, it would need to be written also in the second way, because otherwise it would not be possible to mod it at all, or be extremly limited. Thief: Deadly Shadows is a good example for this, because it was written without complete regard of moddabillity.

So depending on how HL2 was written, it may or may not be possible to extend it. Since HL2 was written with moddabillity in mind also, I would expect that it was designed in such a way that it is indeed possible to mod it, and the huge number of mods indicate that you can do quite a lot of it, because not all of these mods are making just game extensions to the original game.

[SneaksieDave]

Starforce shall soon die. >

 

Not only did that Starforce forum admin boner post a link to wares right on the forums (linked earlier), and public voices are speaking out (editor of PC gamer, also linked IIRC?), but more publishers are stepping up and refusing to use it.

 

No StarForce in NA SpellForce 2

[Dram]

Good news indeed

[Al3xand3r]

So Europeans get the shaft... I hope the game is good and it sells great in the US while crap in EU to show them what the real reason behind bad sales was...

[Dram]

So Europeans get the shaft... I hope the game is good and it sells great in the US while crap in EU to show them what the real reason behind bad sales was...

 

Hopefully.

 

Though I do feel sorry for those working for that bastard who created StarForce, cos once he goes out of business, they got no job. Though I doubt they are complete angels

[Domarius]

Crackers crack protections because the can. Downloaders download it, because they don't want to buy it. Major difference. For crackers it can be either a business or the fun of it, but I doubt that most crackers do it to avoid the sale.

Heh, yeah - they had to get their hands on a bought copy in the first place I suppose.

 

Though I do feel sorry for those working for that bastard who created StarForce, cos once he goes out of business, they got no job. Though I doubt they are complete angels

Well I think the guy sounds like a moron, check out these email's he's sent to people

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/31/starf...threatens_.html

http://news.com.com/5208-7349-0.html?forum...6618&start=-184

Comes across as some cranky nerd trying to appear intimidating over the internet. Empty threats involving the FBI?? How old is this guy? Doesn't come across as very professional, and I only have to assume the same mentality is how he runs his company and how he programs. Even if I didn't have personal accounts of Starforce fucking things up, just these examples alone would cause my faith to dwindle.

[Domarius]

Hey, this is in response to Starforce posting a link to where the game was being distributed as warez on the game company's own forum.

http://www.galciv2.com/

I quoted it here because I can't link directly to the news item and am not sure how long it will stay on the front page.

The auto-track back system our IT guys developed certainly got a work out over the weekend with the copy protection news item.

 

We received email from StarForce today apologizing for the incident. We appreciated them taking down the link. It also gave us the opportunity to request the various meta-torrent sites to remove links to illegal torrents.

 

In every case, the torrent list site in question responded quickly to our request. One might make the argument that a simple polite email to a meta-torrent search site is as effective as copy protection.

 

There is probably some irony that this whole thing occurred just before last week's EBGames.com top selling games list got posted on their site. They list Galactic Civilizations II as the top telling PC title and the #2 overall (all platforms). And that was before this incident.

 

I don't want us to come out like we're on some sort of anti-copy protection crusade. We just don't think CD copy protection is an effective means to increase sales.

 

Here's the basic question that every publisher/gamer/developer could ask: By requiring the CD to be in the drive to play a game, even assuming that protection unbreakable, do you increase your sales?

 

I ask that because many gamers who are on the fence on a given title won't purchase a game if it requires them to treat their CD like a dongle key. Why? Because let's face it, we lose our CDs eventually. Or we damage them. And so what happens is that people who are on the fence on a given title simply choose not to buy the game.

 

By not having any CD copy protection, people who are on the fence about our game can see that it's only $40 and once it's installed on their machines (plural) they don't have to fuss with the CD anymore. And we do have a type of copy protection -- free updates for customers. Tomorrow we'll be posting the v1.1 feature list based on your suggestions.

 

So which method gains the most sales? There's no definitive answer for that. I think a given game's demographics have a lot to do with piracy rates in the first place.

 

Meanwhile, Gamespot followed-up the issue. I spoke to them briefly today on the issue. You can see that in the link below.

 

I think the most effective way of increasing sales is probably to make games people want to buy. But I'm an engineer, not a marketer so what do I know?

 

Let me just post this bit again, incase you missed it;

"I don't want us to come out like we're on some sort of anti-copy protection crusade. We just don't think CD copy protection is an effective means to increase sales.

[sparhawk]

Heh, yeah - they had to get their hands on a bought copy in the first place I suppose.

 

Not neccessarily. I can download a non-cracked version from the internet and crack it. Of course having the working copy helps a lot, because you can compare what it should do, but it is not strictly needed. It depends on the protection. For example, if you download a encrypted file which contains the data, you must have some knowledge about it. You need to know the datastructure or SOMETHING. If you don't know anything you can't crack it because you need to work on some assumptions. In such a case you must try to get a working copy in order to crack it. Depending on the encryption you can try to attack it mathematically in which case you don't need to know anything about the data it contains.

 

Well I think the guy sounds like a moron, check out these email's he's sent to people

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/31/starf...threatens_.html

http://news.com.com/5208-7349-0.html?forum...6618&start=-184

Comes across as some cranky nerd trying to appear intimidating over the internet. Empty threats involving the FBI?? How old is this guy? Doesn't come across as very professional, and I only have to assume the same mentality is how he runs his company and how he programs. Even if I didn't have personal accounts of Starforce fucking things up, just these examples alone would cause my faith to dwindle.

 

Actually I read aboo something like this in a news letter. Apparently there is now a law passed in the US that you can sue now people that you feel annoyed by. Yes. The law was meant to help against spamming, but it was written in such a way that you can also sue for scuh cases as well. I don't know if this law is already passed or if it was just a proprosal, but this mail would fit perfectly in this category, because it can easily used to shut someones mouth for rightfully critizizing your product.

[Domarius]

But still, come on... the FBI?? Geez.

[Dram]

Yeah I thought it was funny too when I read the bit about the FBI lol

[sparhawk]

Why not? In germany they are trying something similar. Spreading Warez is illegal, but it is not a major crime. Therefore, to get recompensation, each company is responsible to find the offender on his own and sue him. BUT! Companies can't get information from ISPs, so what they do now is they make a report and the police requests the adresses from the ISPs. This is quite usefull for the companies because they don't even have to pay for this "service" and get the list of addresses, based on IPs for free. With this they go to court and sue. Fortunately, in their greed now they overdid it a bit. One company filed 20000 reports in one charge, and the attourneys started to complain about it, because it overloads their work. So now they are thinking to pass a law that makes P2P less offending. If you have less then 100 files online then it is not considered to be important enough. So they shot themselve in the foot with this.

 

Well, we will see what will come of this...

[Dram]

So what happens if you have a dynamic ip or a firewall etc?

[sparhawk]

So what? A firewall doesn't hide your IP and if it is dynamic the ISP must still know at which point you had it. He needs this for writing his bill.

[Dram]

yeah i popped in the firewall just for the fuck of it, but i wasnt sure about the dynamic ip.

[SneaksieDave]

Wow.

 

http://www.pcgameworld.com/articles/article.php/id/670/

 

I don't think I've ever been more impressed with a statement from a company. A select quote:

 

If game publishers could simply make people want to be customers — by treating them as a customer and not a potential criminal — I think they’ll see better sales.

 

Why should we all run out and buy Galactic Civilisations II right now?

 

You shouldn't. You should only buy Galactic Civilizations II if you think you'd enjoy playing a space-based strategy game where you're leader of an interstellar civilization. If we make a good game and people like it, the sales will take care of themselves.

 

I wonder if their shares are publicly tradeable...

[Dram]

That's a much better attitude then someone like Eidos

[Domarius]

Haha, this is so cool - just go to the starforce forums, and there are plenty of threads on the front page with people with undeniable problems with starforce - one of them Starforce tried to test and didn't even test it properly.

http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=826

 

And this one is gold - here we have 2 people, who, while fighting, are putting Starforce in a bad light no matter what side you're on

http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=857

 

Also on the front page are these 2 complaints

http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=672

http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=866

 

 

This is my own personal problem that I posted. Actually in truth its my brother's computer we're talking about but I can write it better than him so I just worded it for him.

I also ask them why they closed their competition.

http://www.star-force.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=868

When I say they have a smarmy attitude when describing how their "contest" proves everyone wrong, i'm talking about this attitude (under the heading "The truth about starforce drivers");

http://www.onlinesecurity-on.com/protect.phtml?c=55