Reaction To New Update.

[Gildoran]

@Ishtvan: No, it'd be possible to make a color illustration and have it be affected by lighting. You do it by making the image use modulation, so that background shows through, but is darkened by the image. When you think about it, this is realistic and exactly how colored ink works - it modulates the light that bounces off the paper.

[Dram]

hmm, sounds like an interesting option - but an option, not default. I would turn it on of course, but i'm just thinking about the rest of the community

[sparhawk]

Like was said earlier, just make it an option in an ini file (perhaps with a little check box

in the GUI for FM authors) whether to use pause Thief style reading of notes, scrolls and

books or reading with the game un-paused. Then the designer of the mission can choose

which he prefers.

 

Why should the mission designer have any saying in this? This option is a handicap for slow readers, so the mission designer can not decide this. Unless you are creating a speedread mission...

[sparhawk]

Macsen, what are you talking about man? Frobbing illuminates the object, it's called 'fullbright' after all. T3 used the color overlay method and it sucked.

 

What Macsen says abuot frobbing is correct. The frobbing highlight is an extension for your non-existing virtual hand. In real life you wouldn't need this, because you know where your hands are grabbing. So the frobbing is NOT designed to highlight an object as in "make it brighter" it is designed to show where the focus currently is. The effect is the same but the intention is a different one. You could have just as well created bracket that encloses the object when it is in focus, instead of highlighting it. Other games do it this way. The highight is a vehicle of virtual shortcomings.

[Dram]

But the highlight is much better then friggin brackets. It's more interesting and...thieflike

[bob_arctor]

Keep the TII frob and make the readables readable in the dark please!

 

It would just be too much to have to read, in realtime, in the light.

 

Especially for people come straight from TII or TDS.

[Dram]

an option is fine as long as it can be disabled playerside, like in this case. If people are purists and want to have to read the readable in light and realtime then so be it, they can turn the option on

[sparhawk]

Yeah. But what I mean is, it's not essentialy for what it is designed to do. It's not an intrinsic property.

[Domarius]

What I think is funny about this thread is the title "Reaction to the update" and then the smiley next to it - a green sick face looking like its about to puke. Why is that?

 

The simplest way to shoot blurring down is by one fact: just because your monitor/game view is looking at something, doesn't mean your eyeball is, too. The player's eye is not glued to the crosshair - it can and does wander, using the full field of view, and therefore, depth of focus cues make no sense beyond a gimmicky, crippling gameplay mechanic.

 

Edit: it reminds me loosely of when racing games include a cockpit view with hands and a steering wheel. It may look neat, and be good for replay mode, but I already have hands and a steering wheel, right in front of me. Mine! I don't need two sets.

(Continuing with the redundant discussion for the fun of it) That doesn't prove a blurring effect is completely useless. Like every other feature, it can be used as a gameplay mechanic - usually to simulate "lack of concentreation", like in Doom 3 when you get hit, or Black when you reload your gun.

 

Jesus, I'm almost afraid to ask what Macsen is in charge of.

 

Not anything important, I hope. The guy just seems... loopy.

He's a writer, for the campaign.

[sparhawk]

And the campaign is put on hold.

[Bukary]

And the campaign is put on hold.

Why? What's wrong?

[Dram]

We wanted to get the core assets etc finished up first, so poor mac is like a dog without a bone atm.

 

Though he is doing some mapping and the sorts atm, so he's not unoccupied

[Springheel]

poor mac is like a dog without a bone atm.

 

He resigned as a writer before we put the campaign on hold. The water park map is looking interesting though.

 

What Macsen says abuot frobbing is correct. The frobbing highlight is an extension for your non-existing virtual hand.

 

NH is talking about WHAT it does, not why it does it. Frobbing things fullbrights them. That's what it does. WHY it does it is as you said. Macsen was talking about wanting to change the kind of frob to something more like TDS--an idea I doubt would be very popular.

[Ishtvan]

Another thing about needing light to read:

Have you ever tried reading things in poor light? Would you describe that experience as fun? So fun that you've jumped up and said, "You know what, many people don't get an opportunity in their daily lives to do something exciting like read things in poor light. So I want to design a simulator for reading things in poor light!" We'd probably end up getting sued for someone's failing eyesight.

 

What's next, repetitive stress injury simulator when drawing the bow?

[Dunedain]

Yeah, it would be even better if the player could choose whether to go into "read mode" (game paused)

or read with the game unpaused. And I agree that you shouldn't have to go into a well lit area or use

a lantern or whatever just to read a note or book.

Edited March 16, 2006 by Dunedain

[sparhawk]

So fun that you've jumped up and said, "You know what, many people don't get an opportunity in their daily lives to do something exciting like read things in poor light. So I want to design a simulator for reading things in poor light!" We'd probably end up getting sued for someone's failing eyesight.

 

That sounds exactly like the kind of statement I would expect from Oddity as a rationale to do it.

 

What's next, repetitive stress injury simulator when drawing the bow?

 

... that too.

[Macsen]

Jesus, I'm almost afraid to ask what Macsen is in charge of.

 

Not anything important, I hope. The guy just seems... loopy.

Macsen: Journalist with some interest in writing, architecture and fantasy. Does some work for the Hammerite Imperium and Dark Mod from time to time.

 

ZylonBane: Obsessive compulsive fidgety nanny who gets riled up over the smallest mistakes. Probably a member of the apostrophe society. Does nothing for Thief other than try his best to scare fans away from the forums.

 

Who is the loopy one?

 

so poor mac is like a dog without a bone atm

I have too many bones in my mouth to comment.

[Dram]

lol....I dunno but describing someone as loopy just cracks me up lol

 

I was joking mac

[ZylonBane]

Yeah, it would be even better if the player could choose whether to go into "read mode" (game paused)

or read with the game unpaused.

I don't think there would be much point to such an option. The way TDM is currently handling readables is exactly the way System Shock 2 handles readables, and as far as I can recall nobody has ever complained about it. If anything, the only time it's mentioned is to praise it-- there's just something extra immersive about having to physically go find a safe place to hunker down before reading something. It elevates readables from "just reading" to something which the player must actually accommodate within the gameworld.

Edited March 17, 2006 by ZylonBane

[sparhawk]

I think that many such issues are discussed because they are discussed and not experienced. If we would just implement it and players play it, they can see how it feels, but if this is described in textual way, then suddenly all kind of concerns are raised, which are actually not existent in the real thing.

[ZylonBane]

Umm, did you even read what I said? SS2 already works exactly this way. Many people have experienced it, and found the experience pleasing.

[Domarius]

I am not sure what Spar's stance on the issue is, I had to assume he was agreeing with you.

 

Though I have played SS2 recently and don't remember needing light to read. Well all the things I remember reading where "email" type things, exactly like Doom 3, except all of it is full spoken audio as well as text coming up in a PDA screen, so I don't know what you are referring to.

[bob_arctor]

No he's talking about real time access to inventory, notes, and logs. Which is great.

 

No game has needed real time light sourcing to read. That is just annoying and stupid. Just assume the Thief pulls out a glowstick or something. Having to stand in the middle of a lit area, in real time, to read a book, is just lame and boring.

 

It is also unfair on those who wish to avoid blackjacking, because they might have to blackjack to clear a room to read their book in.

 

Plus it's one more problem for FM authors, who may not know this new rule, so loads of maps will not be set up and balanced for it.

 

My verdict: Real time= great, lighting required to read= rubbish.

[sparhawk]

Umm, did you even read what I said? SS2 already works exactly this way. Many people have experienced it, and found the experience pleasing.

 

That's why I responded with, that people read to much in the written discussion instead of trying it in a game.

[Dunedain]

I'm definitely one of those that really likes reading elaborate notes and books, etc. Thief is

great for the detailed writings of the Hammers that you can read, their rules, their traditions,

their holy days and so on. *next part of reply will be in the next post*

Edited March 19, 2006 by Dunedain