Hold Your Breath?

[Dram]

Indeed, realtime readables are excellent atm imo. You'll have to wait and see i guess....or we could make a small video of it...MWAHAHAHAAAHA I'm evil...sorry for getting you hopes up

[ZylonBane]

A good reason for adding the breath holding feature is the puzzle increase. Take any standard puzzle. Stick it in a gas filled room. Standard, 'realistic' puzzle timer. If you fail to complete the puzzle before you run out of air; You die.

Ummm... that scenario works perfectly well with automatic breath-holding.

 

Or were you referring to breath-holding in general?

Edited April 28, 2006 by ZylonBane

[Gildoran]

I completely agree with Sparhawk.

 

The way I implemented readables wasn't exactly the same as had been discussed (though it was consistant with the general idea in many respects), and had some elements that I thought some people could disagree with. I intentionally waited until I had a basic gameplay testmap before describing my idea, because I worried that if I described it first without people seeing it in action, people would shoot it down as being too complicated when it's really intuitive.

 

For much the same reason, I waited until I had a basic testmap before bringing up my idea for showing multiple items in the inventory. I figured people would say that such a feature would be too cluttered and annoying if they didn't see it in action. (note to public: do not assume that such a feature will be in the final version of TDM - the current version is primarily for testing and proof-of-concept purposes)

 

But in both cases, people seemed to quite like the features when they had a chance to interact with them.

 

I beleive the old adage that "a picture is worth a thousand words". Try to describe something and it will sound complicated. Let somebody use it and they'll see whether or not it really is.

[sparhawk]

I completely agree with Sparhawk.

 

Thx.

 

The way I implemented readables wasn't exactly the same as had been discussed (though it was consistant with the general idea in many respects), and had some elements that I thought some people could disagree with.

 

That's exactly my point. Quite on the contrary the debate for readables has just died down, with several ideas still in the open. Gilderon took that ideas and implemented it as he thought it to be the best way and suddenly the issue was resolved. There was no more discussion, wether readables shold pause gametime and such and everybody agreed that it was good as it is.

 

I intentionally waited until I had a basic gameplay testmap before describing my idea, because I worried that if I described it first without people seeing it in action, people would shoot it down as being too complicated when it's really intuitive.

 

Which is exactly what happens in 99% of the cases.

 

But in both cases, people seemed to quite like the features when they had a chance to interact with them.

 

That's my point.

 

I beleive the old adage that "a picture is worth a thousand words". Try to describe something and it will sound complicated. Let somebody use it and they'll see whether or not it really is.

 

Yup.

[Springheel]

There will always be people who don't like new ideas, regardless of how they're implemented. And there will always be people who put forward ideas that aren't particularly good. Most members of the team are reasonable and intelligent enough to detect ideas that sound good but wouldn't work well in practice, or vice versa.

[Domarius]

If the "picture = 1000 words" scenario is true, then programmers have an edge since they can create something to show people.

[sparhawk]

Just like modelers can create something that the programmers can't. Or texture artists etc..

[bob_arctor]

Well the sniper hold breath key is something that already exists, it's like e or f or whatever the use key is isn't it?

(It better be for my argument to hold...)

 

But a breath holding key is completely separate. A 100% new key just for one small function which only is needed in some fairly rare (compared with say leaning), that nevertheless (unlike breath holding for sniping) is really vital and MUST be learnt to survive levels.

 

Consider someone who didn't know about that feature, they would be completely confused by it.

With automatic they go "oh righhhht I think I get it" or just get out the room without fully understanding it until later.

[Mr Retarded]

Ummm... that scenario works perfectly well with automatic breath-holding.

 

Or were you referring to breath-holding in general?

 

I was talking about breath-holding in general.

Just for the record: I'm for automatic breath-holding...

[Domarius]

Just like modelers can create something that the programmers can't. Or texture artists etc..

Yeah but seriously - how much arguing do we do over "models" vs actual gameplay features? Most of the stuff we argue about needs to be programmed.

[Dram]

Yeah but seriously - how much arguing do we do over "models" vs actual gameplay features?

 

prelate and armour

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

In those cases, you *still* don't need a key, since the player would automatically hold their breath as soon as they started taking damage from the gas.

 

I see this train of thought circling around the discussion without anyone bashing it so I'll just quickly bash it here and now. If you take a breath of poisonous gas and then hold your breath, the gas is not reacting away anywhere and it's not being replaced in your lungs. If it does damage then it will continue to do damage.

 

If, on the other hand, the unpleasantness of the gas is guaged, just like our normal biological noses do, the player will know when to hold his breath. Without knowing the circumstances, the player won't know if this stinky gas is poisonous enough or not. All he knows from previous experiences is if the guage becomes too stinky (and he has the given gas in his lungs) he starts taking damage at a fast exponential rate until he can ventilate his lungs with fresh air or dies. In real life none of us have died yet, but we have ran away to fresh air instinctively to ventilate our lungs and prevent death. Therefore I propose a guage for smelliness, a button/automatic to hold breath, possibility of odourless, colourless death gas in lower chambers evident by circumstantial evidence, and a button which toggles and you don't have to hold. (sense of smell only possible while breathing).

 

Regarding toggling: Thief is pretty much the only first person game I played for years. I played doom 3 and half life 2 recently. not having two separate buttons for running and walking, and having to hold shift for either one and not having toggl'able crouch really makes playing uncomfortable.

 

 

I wanted to propose finite element gradation of the room into concentrations of the gas, and certain concertrations of odorous gas being smell'able while higher ones being lethal and the different concentrations of odourless colourless gases taking different time to kill the player (no healthbar indicator here because there is none when you die from CO). but then I thought the community would think of it as too complicated.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat

[ZylonBane]

If you take a breath of poisonous gas and then hold your breath, the gas is not reacting away anywhere and it's not being replaced in your lungs. If it does damage then it will continue to do damage.

And that's why harmful poisonous gas should always be visible, so it makes sense that your character knows to hold his breath before entering it.

[Ishtvan]

I wanted to propose finite element gradation of the room into concentrations of the gas, and certain concertrations of odorous gas being smell'able while higher ones being lethal and the different concentrations of odourless colourless gases taking different time to kill the player (no healthbar indicator here because there is none when you die from CO). but then I thought the community would think of it as too complicated.

 

I'm not sure about too complicated, but dividing the room into a finite element mesh and modeling diffusion of gasses would very likely be a killer on the CPU.

[sparhawk]

Yeah but seriously - how much arguing do we do over "models" vs actual gameplay features? Most of the stuff we argue about needs to be programmed.

 

Yeah. That's becasue programmers accept good models, but everybody seems to think he should have a saying in how the programmers work.

[Domarius]

Well I'll let you deal with the consiquences of that statement yourself.

 

But it's not about how the programmers work, I was saying that if a person has an idea for the mod, they are at an advantage if they are a programmer because they can implement it and show everyone in reality, rather than describing it.

[sparhawk]

And my answer to that is, that it is the same for modelers for the visual aspect. If I have a good idea how a model should look like, I could just describe it to you, because I could not even draw a concept for it. The same applies to the other departments.

[OrbWeaver]

Therefore I propose a guage for smelliness, a button/automatic to hold breath, possibility of odourless, colourless death gas in lower chambers evident by circumstantial evidence, and a button which toggles and you don't have to hold. (sense of smell only possible while breathing).

 

This isn't a mining rescue simulation. We don't need an accurate mechanism for poison gas detection and avoidance.

 

As ZylonBane said, it would be a suitable design decision to assume that all killer gas was visible and odourous, so that the automatic holding of breath was justified and reasonable. If you have ever had the misfortune to inhale a small amount of such as gas (I accidentally inhaled some NO2 when tipping a testtube of some reacting substance into a sink) you will realise that taking a complete breath is not even possible - you stop inhaling the minute the gas enters your olfactory system.

 

Also, having a "Hold breath" key from a gameplay perspective is like holding up a large neon sign saying "This game contains poison gas traps!!!".

[Domarius]

@Spar - ugh, going round in circles again.

 

Let me explain it like this - here is a percentage breakdown of all the features we've discussed, and what categories they are dependant on to be demonstrated (rough stats based only on my memory );

Models - 10%

Concept art - 5%

Sound effects - 0%

Programming - 85%

[Hylix Ulyx]

Also, having a "Hold breath" key from a gameplay perspective is like holding up a large neon sign saying "This game contains poison gas traps!!!".

 

I agree with your point principly, orb, but the hold breath key could also have other functions...say, when swimming underwater. Of course, it pretty much accepted that when a player character (specifically, our thief) dives underwater, he will "automatically" hold his breath. The same can apply seemlessly to a gaseous room or some such.

 

Of course, you could have a hold breath key, and force the player to use it not only in a gas filled room, but underwater, instead of automatically...and maybe even in close proximity to a guard to aid in stealth.

 

Then again, if a guard is close enough to smell your breath, he's also close enough to smell stale water and poison gas on your clothes...

 

 

nevermind.

[Domarius]

People are going to lynch us for making them hold down another (unessecary) key while swimming, as if it wasn't annoying enough already.

 

Having to hold your breath feels too much like feature creep at the moment.

[OrbWeaver]

People are going to lynch us for making them hold down another (unessecary) key while swimming, as if it wasn't annoying enough already.

 

Absolutely. One has to consider what a particular feature adds to the gameplay, and this one adds nothing.

[Hylix Ulyx]

I wouldn't say "nothing"...

 

I mean, sure, it's benefits are hardly worth the overhead out of the box, but it would force the player to be more methodical, and isn't that what makes this type of gaming appealing: Methodical, strategic, tactical gameplay that forces you to think and do, instead of just "do".

 

Why not just make crouching sufficient for stealth, instead of worrying about footsteps.?

Or why not give me a context sensitive "raised blackjack" when I'm in KO distance?

 

What seperates Thief and it's ilk from other games, in and out of the genre, is it's delibrateness.

 

You can't get more delibrate than a "hold your breath" key.

Edited April 29, 2006 by Hylix Ulyx

[Domarius]

Yeah but stealth pays off in so many different ways.

 

Holding your breath is only for gas traps (and water... eesh). It's a really limited feature, so not that much worth implementing in the basic toolset. Like the shop discussion.

[ZylonBane]

I mean, sure, it's benefits are hardly worth the overhead out of the box, but it would force the player to be more methodical, and isn't that what makes this type of gaming appealing: Methodical, strategic, tactical gameplay that forces you to think and do, instead of just "do".

The key word here is "think". Holding your breath before entering into an area where you can't/shouldn't breath is an archetypal "no-brainer" decision. It's something you would never NOT do, unless you were deliberately trying to kill yourself. So, it should be automatic.

 

Granted, sometimes games take this line of thinking too far. For example, TDS's designers assumed that frobbing a locked door always means you want to lockpick it, and that approaching a ladder always means you want to climb it, etc. Ugh.