Hold Your Breath?

[demagogue]

I was speaking about the manual version, not the automatic. More specifically, I was referencing the player setting off a gas arrow

 

I wonder if I missed something here. Couldn't the same thing happen with automatic? What if you want to fire a gas arrow at a pursuing AI that runs into a gas room with you, so you go into auto-breath-hold, then you shoot off a gas arrow which explodes next to you, still in the gas-room (or there's just a gas-mine on the ground for some reason) ... so do you take damage from the gas-arrow or not? You're holding your breath because of the gas room, but gas arrows seem separate from the whole breath-holding side of things. I'm sure this has already been thought about, but anyway just occured to me with this post.

 

ZB, it's interesting you bring up that cite (as long as we're in webgeekery mode). A project I've dabbled a little in (re: military law) is how the US uses things like phosphorus gas (i.e., white smoke), which aren't covered under the chemical weapons convention since they are only supposed to be defensive (covering troops to run thru, etc), "arguably" as an offensive weapon, since it turns out there is some contact damage, particularly if they lob a phosphorus grenade that goes off right next to someone's face, makes for some nasty skin effects, and what really counts as "contact" damage, what it says on the label or what physiologically happens in real life under various conditions, and how do you draw the line...

 

Anyway, because of that project I researched a little about the human effects of different substances, and what gets in the CWC and what doesn't, and why, etc...

 

It would be interesting to think about more accurate representation of things like gas in-game, but I also like the simplicity of the Thief world and wouldn't be such a fan of going over board. (It reminds me of the debate in the Battlefield 1942 - WWI TC whether they wanted things like mustard gas in it, and they voted no because it's just not fun to play a game with that kind of thing, and everyone would just use it for every battle, etc...)

Edited May 4, 2006 by demagogue

[ZylonBane]

I actually wonder whether the "instant knock-out" effect should be abandoned in favour of something more realistic and suitably low-tech - either extreme choking and blindness as with an acidic gas, or delayed collapse and incapacitation as in an asphyxiant.

I think this would be a great improvement. Gas arrows in classic Thief are basically a consequence-free area-of-effect launchable blackjack attack. A bit overpowered. With an added delay of a few seconds before unconsciousness, it would be a much more balanced weapon. Players would have to weigh the convenience of incapacitating one or more guards from a safe distance against any havoc the guards could cause before they pass out (yelling, screaming, pressing alarm buttons, attacking the player, etc). Since this is exactly how tranq darts in DX worked, I'm not even speaking theoretically here. It's a known good play mechanic.

[Springheel]

With an added delay of a few seconds before unconsciousness, it would be a much more balanced weapon. Players would have to weigh the convenience of incapacitating one or more guards from a safe distance against any havoc the guards could cause before they pass out (yelling, screaming, pressing alarm buttons, attacking the player, etc).

 

This wouldn't make them sufficiently different from regular arrows, though. They're slightly better, since you don't have to aim as carefully, but not better enough that they'd be worth spending much money on.

 

I think the whole point of gas arrows in their current form is that they are quite powerful, but also very rare. You have to decide when it's most advantageous to use it. FMs that give out more than one or two are missing the point, IMO.

[ZylonBane]

This wouldn't make them sufficiently different from regular arrows, though.

I wouldn't say that. Gas arrows can affect multiple targets with one shot, and are guaranteed to eliminate any affected target. Price and rarity are a non-issue. Those can easily be adjusted to whatever the mission designer wants.

 

It would be a shame to lose those instant takedowns though. How about-- a direct hit to the face is an instant knockout, but anywhere else it takes a few seconds.

Edited May 4, 2006 by ZylonBane

[Domarius]

Sounds interesting.

[Hylix Ulyx]

I just want to state for the record that my replies/musings are not with the expectation that this will force the dev team to implement the feature:

 

Zylonbane

This is another example of meaningless (aka "no-brainer") choice. If holding your breath steadied your aim, you would never NOT hold your breath.

 

I see your point, but this is not necessarily the case. It is not always necessary to need a steady aim, especially in (relative) close quarters. This is true in real-life as it can be in game-life.

 

Let's say the feature (manually) were designed with a slight delay (the initial breath-taking), then attempting to let off a quick arrow by having to automatically breath and steady your aim would be self defeating. The player would be at a serious disadvantage if trying to peel off a quick shot (such as trying to deploy a rope arrow or a gas arrow at a mob of persuing guards) and being forced to, without the option, wait for the breath holding sequence. In dire times when the thief would need to "shoot from the hip" (so to speak), there would be no plausible reason why he'd need to, or wish to, hold his breath.

 

BTW: I realise there would already be a delay by simply knocking an arrow

 

Contrarywise, if the player is attmepting a long volley of broadheads, or attempting to snuff a torch with a water arrow at extreme distance, or pinch that little sliver of wood with the rope arrow, manually holding his or her breath could aid in those precious few degrees of stability.

 

Demagogue

I wonder if I missed something here. Couldn't the same thing happen with automatic?

 

I see what you're saying, but my take on the feature is that manually holding your breath would cancel the effects of ANY type of gas, beit from arrows, prox triggers, or traps/trapped rooms. Of course, the avatar would only be able to hold his or her breath for so long, so if you're in a room that continually pumps gas through the grating, then you better get out before you need to take another breath.

[bob_arctor]

Okay I think now that sticking with the TII method is best, with room for a cloth round the mouth to be added.

The whole thing is a quagmire of problems.

[demagogue]

Yeah, I think that's the best way to go, too.

 

ZB, what about poison tipped arrows for what you're talking about? It may add up to the same thing in the end, but seems a little more intuitive IMO. But I don't have a strong opinion about it. Just a thought.

 

An aside: I could imagine a mace-gas effect lasting for a while ... not knocking a guard out but blinding him so that you could run past, but he also shouts out ... more intuitive than a flash bomb at least.

[Ishtvan]

The whole thing is a quagmire of problems.

 

This is how most feature discussions end up.

[ZylonBane]

ZB, what about poison tipped arrows for what you're talking about?

If you're talking about poison-tipped arrows in addition to gas arrows, then I'd rather not.

 

I am, in general, a fan of making toolsets deeper instead of wider. Hence my preference to expand the breath-holding mechanism to encompass gas as well, instead of adding a new breath-holding key. And the above suggestion about making gas arrows work slightly differently depending on how accurately you use them.

[Dram]

Wow, I can't believe this thread has spanned 7 pages

[Domarius]

Beleive it. We've had much longer.

[Dram]

Beleive it. We've had much longer.

 

Lightgem thread....

[ZylonBane]

Where's Oddity? This seems like the sort of "realism vs gameplay" discussion that he's usually all over.

[OrbWeaver]

Moving onwards and upwards, apparently.