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3rd Person


Arumakani

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What I mean is whilst playing the game I want to be able to move the camera around such as 3rd person Thief DS and Splinter Cell.

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"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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Yeah the camera was independent of movement yet whilst moving you could steer Garrett more effectively by using it, if you get what I mean.

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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Uhg, you BOTH never realised the whole time?? I think that says something about your perceptive ability and/or your playing style.

 

Let me explain;

 

Imagine you're standing at a corner, the edge of it is on your right, and looks down a hallway. You COULD lean to your right, to peek down the hallway, thus exposing yourself slightly, but with third person, there's no need to. Since the camera, effectively stuck on a pole sticking out of your back, can see down the entire length of the hallway, at no cost to you.

 

In fact the even TEACH you to use this very same trick on Zelda 64 in a tutorial, to remain hidden while getting a free look around a corner.

 

Since it is further back, it has a different perspective than you and can be used to see into places without exposing your real body. A free "scouting orb" that floats behind you, Gradius style.

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I knew that already :P It moves around Garrett. It all comes back to what was said earlier in the thread. I reckon the Dark Mod will be class as the Thief style character is unknown at the moment anyway and you can imagine yourself as him. The FP is fine. However Garret, Fisher, Snake etc are not you. It's personal preference.

Edited by Arumakani

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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But you're not just choosing wether or not to "be" the character.

 

You're also choosing wether or not to accept a free view around corners.

 

You've probably heard the person coming anyway, you're just able to plan when to confront a bit better.

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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You're better off sticking with the "personal preference" argument then to seriously argue there's no practical, gameplay difference between a camera that can see down the entire length of a blind hallway and audio cues that may or may not tell you what's around it, or if anything that the gameplay is actually *better* because it's easier. For one thing, it's begging the question about what good gameplay is. Just stick with "it's my preference".

 

And honestly speaking, with all the murmuring this forum has had with 3P, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if after TDM was released there was serious work on getting 3P tweaked to look good by some interested/ambitious somebody, that and multiplayer. Just seems a matter of course.

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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You've probably heard the person coming anyway, you're just able to plan when to confront a bit better.

You bet, because you can see him entirely, and he can't see you.

 

As if the AI weren't stupid enough that they needed some other horrible and unrealistic disadvantage.

 

Your use of the word "probably" suggests that there are also cases where you didn't hear them coming but can see them anyway. This is entirely true.

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You're better off sticking with the "personal preference" argument then to seriously argue there's no practical, gameplay difference between a camera that can see down the entire length of a blind hallway and audio cues that may or may not tell you what's around it, or if anything that the gameplay is actually *better* because it's easier. For one thing, it's begging the question about what good gameplay is. Just stick with "it's my preference".

 

And honestly speaking, with all the murmuring this forum has had with 3P, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if after TDM was released there was serious work on getting 3P tweaked to look good by some interested/ambitious somebody, that and multiplayer. Just seems a matter of course.

 

 

I disagree with easiness in 3rd person. It's all dependent on the enemy AI aswell as difficulty setting/objectives. Splinter Cell 1&2 are a prime example. Also you could argue that it's difficult to know when exactly to attack from behind in 3rd person in comparison to FP. SC shows a box to say when to grab etc.

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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I disagree with easiness in 3rd person. It's all dependent on the enemy AI as well as difficulty setting/objectives.

 

That's not the point though Arumakani. AI, difficulty settings and objectives are set values that do not have any third person advantages. So if the playing field were to be evened out....ALL ai should have their vision pulled back to a third person perspective as well...that way, they would be able to see YOU from unrealistic places as well.

 

This gameplay was created and defined as a "First Person Sneaker". It's undeniable that Third Person gives the player an unfair advantage...it just does. Try thinking of it this way. The AI are all designed to see as a real person sees, so if you're in Third person, hiding behind a huge crate...they can't see YOU, but you can see THEM. Third person is like having a helicopter fly overhead and radio in the positions of your enemy.

 

1. This circumvents the AI. You don't have to worry as much about what 'can't' see you.

2. Difficulty level of the AI matters far less if you can see them...yet again, unfair advantage.

3. Objectives like 'not being seen' can be more easily completed if you are able to 'see ahead' in third person to plan your route far ahead of them.

 

If third person weren't going to be used for Cinematics, I would vote to remove access to it entirely. It ruins the entire point of Thief Style gameplay.

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I've accepted the fact you guys aren't going to do 3rd person. It's your mod and you are 100% entitled to do as you see fitting aswell as the gameplay style, view etc. I was merely putting my personal reasons for liking the 3rd person, namely that of viewing the character you are controlling aswell as the actions he/she is doing. It's almost godlike as you are controlling them almost like a pawn. Some may say with the placement of the camera in 3rd person especially in closed environments i.e. corridors etc it may actually be more difficult as in FP you move around quickly for view, whereas the camera is not fast in the 3rd person to get the best aspect.

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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I don't really think it is possible or reasonable to argue gameplay from a third person perspective is in any way harder than gameplay from a first person perspective in a "First Person Sneaker." The third person perspective allows one, as you've stated, "to be more strategic" in their actions. "Strategic," in this case, straightforwardly translates to "much less challenging."

 

I understand the attitude portrayed by the regulars here regarding the prospects of third-person perspective could be considered quite bitter, and I also understand that being repeatedly chided on how your preference in gameplay perspective is solely utilized as a result of its unfair advantage could be irritable, but I do not believe there is any further reason to debate this topic, given that--as offending as it may sound--it is clear that this is why you prefer the third-person. But there's nothing wrong with this partiality, and, given one's naturally competitive tendencies, it is a foreseen reaction to become defensive when having been told "my way is more challenging than yours," even when it is true.

 

As for some of the regulars' bitter attitudes, I think you'll find they are rather mellow in threads not pertaining to a feature which would destroy any bit of pleasure they gained from Thief :) .

 

Though, if only for the sake of delaying these forum goers' progressing RSI syndromes, I think it would be best to not redirect this thread into a discussion regarding the minute difficulties third-person view has over first-person (I can clearly forsee it turning to this), as it is both a waste of time and a boring argument. In addition, any negative associations that haven't already been established between you and the forum's following would become excessive ;) .

 

The hardest AI settings played in third person, will be an easier game than the hardest AI settings played in first person.

You mean: The hardest AI settings played in third-person, will be easier than the easiest AI settings played in first person. :)

Edited by woah
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It's almost godlike as you are controlling them almost like a pawn.
If you want to feel godlike, go play a god game.

 

Some may say with the placement of the camera in 3rd person especially in closed environments i.e. corridors etc it may actually be more difficult as in FP you move around quickly for view, whereas the camera is not fast in the 3rd person to get the best aspect.
Difficulty which arises from a shortcoming of the game engine is the BAD kind of difficulty.

 

In conclusion: You suck.

Edited by ZylonBane
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Atleast woah, doesn't personalise and be rude when putting his point across ZylonBane. If you don't like what I've said or disagree strongly, I suggest you not write in this thread as you're acting like a spoilt American teenager, who is becoming abusive. <_<

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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I don't really think it is possible or reasonable to argue gameplay from a third person perspective is in any way harder than gameplay from a first person perspective in a "First Person Sneaker." The third person perspective allows one, as you've stated, "to be more strategic" in their actions. "Strategic," in this case, straightforwardly translates to "much less challenging."

 

I understand the attitude portrayed by the regulars here regarding the prospects of third-person perspective could be considered quite bitter, and I also understand that being repeatedly chided on how your preference in gameplay perspective is solely utilized as a result of its unfair advantage could be irritable, but I do not believe there is any further reason to debate this topic, given that--as offending as it may sound--it is clear that this is why you prefer the third-person. But there's nothing wrong with this partiality, and, given one's naturally competitive tendencies, it is a foreseen reaction to become defensive when having been told "my way is more challenging than yours," even when it is true.

 

As for some of the regulars' bitter attitudes, I think you'll find they are rather mellow in threads not pertaining to a feature which would destroy any bit of pleasure they gained from Thief :) .

 

Though, if only for the sake of delaying these forum goers' progressing RSI syndromes, I think it would be best to not redirect this thread into a discussion regarding the minute difficulties third-person view has over first-person (I can clearly forsee it turning to this), as it is both a waste of time and a boring argument. In addition, any negative associations that haven't already been established between you and the forum's following would become excessive ;) .

You mean: The hardest AI settings played in third-person, will be easier than the easiest AI settings played in first person. :)

 

 

3rd person is a viable option in stealth games, if not why would Metal Gear which is considered a stealth game aswell as Splinter Cell be so popular? They've both outsold Thief games many times over. The Japanese don't really like the first person perspective, hence the lack of popularity of FPS games.

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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If you don't like what I've said or disagree strongly, I suggest you not write in this thread

Your suggestion has been considered and rejected.

 

3rd person is a viable option in stealth games

Well duh, of course it is. It's viable in the sense that it makes the game MUCH EASIER.

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I'm not very fond of 3rd person in Thief (although I must admit that Garrett's moves looked really good in TDS), but I don't understand why someone who likes it "sucks"... I don't like 3rd person, because it makes the game less immmersive for me. And that's it.

 

3rd person view makes Thief easier - that's a fact. So what? Is there anything wrong with playing Thief as a master of puppet? Is there anything wrong with playing Thief as a novice, not an expert? Not everyone has to choose the highest difficulty level. If you hate 3rd person view fans, you should probably also dislike the ones who play Thief at the lowest difficulty level.

 

Isn't it all about fun? I don't want to play the game that stimulates thief's life mimetically, if it's not fun... And there are people who enjoy 3rd person experience... Perhaps Thief is not for them. But it does not necessarily mean they "suck". ;)

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If I remember correctly, this project was inspired by Thief, which traditionally is presented in first person. This project was not inspired by Splinter Cell, and for good reason, they are different experiences. Thief makes you feel as if you are Garrett, you aren't playing a game any longer, but rather, you are a Thief, and you get the rush robbing in turn. One thing I disliked about Thief 3 was that I was constantly reminded that I wasn't Garrett, but rather, I'm watching him. When I climb I get to see his hands fumble on the ledge.

 

The goal of this is to immerse the character with realism, but for the most part, it doesn't immerse me, it does quite the opposite--it distracts me. Traditionalists of the series praised the first person view of the other games because you felt as if you were the character. Looking glass *could* have put in a third person view, but their audience wasn't the one who wanted it; the exception was Theif 3, but that was put into place to support the Xbox and give the game more of a "console" feel. Although that wasn't done by Looking Glass, was it?

 

As for comparing Thief to Metal Gear, please. As far as the only one I've played, Metal Gear Solid, there aren't even shadows. There is no reason to put the effort into a third person view, and for the most part, why are we even discussing this? It's a waste of resources to compensate for the gameplay by adding new animations etc. It's a waste of time. Think from the developers perspective because certainly I don't want them wasting their time with a third person view to appease a new audience in the Dark Mod forums when they could be spending it with features that would please everyone.

 

In short, it's nice that you want to argue about whether or not the feature should be added, but you aren't the ones making the mod. Though you are certainly acting as if you are. If you want to include the feature yourself, you are more then welcome to. I imagine you'll quickly find it is more trouble then it is worth, but of course, you want to make a whole game as well? Oh sure, piece of cake. Happens all the time in fact. Good luck.

Edited by Ombrenuit
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