3rd Person

[Arumakani]

As I've said a few times before here, it's there mod and they will be providing tools etc for which anyone can do as they want. I was never saying that Splinter Cell or MGS should influence the mod or such, merely stating how they've met with success with bringing stealth to the 3rd person. If anyhting Splinter Cell was more influenced by Thief then MGS, as the developer have said they were very influenced by the shadow play aswell as the light gem.

[ZylonBane]

You discuss like a kid.

How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

[sparhawk]

Somebody played Monkey Island here.

[Arumakani]

How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

 

Whereas you fight like a girl. Therefore you're a bitch

[New Horizon]

And I'm going to tell everyone to knock it off with the idiotic name calling. I was sure we had intelligent mature posters on this forum, seems they may have caught some kind of fever that has caused them to forget their manners.

[ZylonBane]

Oh it's all good now. Arumakani just failed his PC gamer cred test.

[Arumakani]

Don't see the point in talking about Monkey Island, day of the Tentacle and all the other point and click adventure game stuff in a thread about 3rd person modding. I've been playing games since 1981 with Atari, the Commodore, then Sega and Nintendo, aswell as Microsoft and Sony, aswell as the occasional PC game here and there. You're just a little brat, who can't win a conversation, and therefore resort to name calling, using some code of honour for pc gaming as an excuse for your pedantic, petty retorts.

[Domarius]

Arumakani, we know you know we will do what we want with the mod. We know you know you can do what YOU want with the mod, after it's released.

 

It's just that, as long as you continue to discuss and defend your point of view, so we shall ours - which is; Third person mode makes the game easier.

 

3rd person is a viable option in stealth games, if not why would Metal Gear which is considered a stealth game aswell as Splinter Cell be so popular? They've both outsold Thief games many times over.

If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it too? Crap shows like Pokemon, and Big Brother are popular, does that make them good?

The Japanese don't really like the first person perspective, hence the lack of popularity of FPS games.

The Japanese also see high pitched voices as powerful and intimidating, whereas western cultures preffer low deep voices for the same thing. Apples and oranges. 2 different cultures. Don't know why you even said this. Are we supposed to read that and go "ooohhh, the Japanese don't like FPSs? Then it must be bad, because we all know Japanese are superior in every way."

[Arumakani]

Listen, I am merely replying to the constant name calling and derogoratory remarks by ZylonBane. Has he got anything to do with the mod, or is he just a tool? I was as said earlier saying that 3rd person is a popular option as exemplified by MGS and SC. You've taken it personally aswell as an attck on the mod which will be FP, which I was not doing it as. As for the Japanese thing, I was saying that gaming is huge in Japan and it's the place where many of the console companies have to crack. True it's not PC gaming but just pointing out, that the Japanes don't accept the FP viewpoint as well as Westerners do. And I know FPS people don't accept the 3rd person. It's called having an opinion and discussing it. It's good to be serious about your mod, gaming etc but not to the point of becoming unhumorous and uncivil too.

[Domarius]

I'm afraid you're the only one who's taken any of this personally. Read my post again, there is nothing personal in it. It is all broad generalisations. The way I worded the japanese thing in quotes might seem rude, I suppose. Other than that - all we are doing is discussing. And in a discussion, there are disagreements.

 

That said, ZylonBane doesn't count, because he is in no way affiliated with us, and he definetly crosses the line when it comes to avoiding uncivility.

 

But can you quote where in that post I gave you the impression that I thought you were attacking the mod?

 

 

I say again - we're only defending OUR point of view, just as you are yours. And that is; 3rd person makes the game easier.

 

The discussion never reaches a conclusion because although we've given examples of how it does, you haven't given examples of how it doesn't. Yet you keep saying that it doesn't.

[Arumakani]

Fair enough. But when you were saying:

 

"It's just that, as long as you continue to discuss and defend your point of view, so we shall ours - which is; Third person mode makes the game easier."

 

It appears you were including ZylonBane with that comment. I was never talking about harder or easier withh rgards to 3rd person, merely stating that it's an option. I never fully accepted FP from when I used to play GoldenEye and suffered motion sickness. I even had it to begin with Halo, but the pace is a lot slower and I could adjust quite easily, as with Deus Ex and Half Life2.

 

I have taken nothing except what ZylonBane says personally as if you've read many of his, so called, contributions they have been rather rude, and thus can only conclude he's a jerk, as the Americans would say.

[Domarius]

I was never talking about harder or easier withh rgards to 3rd person, merely stating that it's an option.

No, not initially, because you were unaware that it makes the game easier. It was when we tried to educate you of this fact, that your counter-arguments were these;

 

I disagree with easiness in 3rd person. It's all dependent on the enemy AI aswell as difficulty setting/objectives. Splinter Cell 1&2 are a prime example. Also you could argue that it's difficult to know when exactly to attack from behind in 3rd person in comparison to FP. SC shows a box to say when to grab etc.

 

...Some may say with the placement of the camera in 3rd person especially in closed environments i.e. corridors etc it may actually be more difficult as in FP you move around quickly for view, whereas the camera is not fast in the 3rd person to get the best aspect.

 

Do you agree that third person is easier or not?

[Arumakani]

You guys directed the thread in that easier etc discussion. I never did, I was merely talking about a third person aspect, and it's implementation.

[Domarius]

I know we did, I said you weren't asking it initially.

 

We've covered third person aspect, and it's implementation.

 

Now, we are trying to explain to you that you are making the game easier if you choose first person, and you have been openly disagreeing, in spite of our explanations.

 

So what I'm asking you now is - do you agree that third person is easier?

[Arumakani]

Overall gameplay aspect, I'm not 100% convinced. It's easier to aim and get a more accurate hit in FP, unless 3rd person is auto aim. I found Thief DS FP on the hardest setting a lot easier then SC:PT on the hardest setting. Having said that Halo 2 on Legendary which I finished was very tough. So I'm not truely sure.

[sparhawk]

Don't see the point in talking about Monkey Island, ...

 

You discuss like a kid.

 

How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

 

Whereas you fight like a girl.

 

Could be taken straight from a scene from Monkey Island.

[ZylonBane]

I have taken nothing except what ZylonBane says personally as if you've read many of his, so called, contributions they have been rather rude, and thus can only conclude he's a jerk, as the Americans would say.

I prefer to think of myself as adaptive. When debating with someone, I iteratively scale down to successively more and more blunt instruments in an attempt to penetrate the target subject's thick skull.

 

You've proven to be quite impervious to the entire scale of discourse. At this point there's nothing left but to slag you off for our own amusement.

[demagogue]

I don't even know why I'm contributing to this. Obviously, I take a different tactic from ZB ... maybe I could learn something from it. But anyway...

 

The problem with this debate is nobody is clarifying the terms of "difficulty".

 

E.g., the examples you point out Arumakani go to one point that "difficulty" is a matter of design. You may be right that TDS 1P was easier than SCPT 3P as a matter of design; i.e., you can *make* a hard 3P game and an easy 1P game. TDS was poor in design and much easier than the other Thief games in many ways (I haven't played SC so can't say, but if it's like MGS...), but anyway your point wouldn't be surprising. But the relevant question Dom is pushing is: is TDS 1P easier than TDS 3P? Is the 1P itself inherently easier?

 

But even here what are the terms of "difficulty"?

 

You point out aiming can be easier with 1P. Along those lines, certain PC manipulations would also be easier to handle in 1P, crawling under spaces, jumping, generally handling the 3D environment. Then ZB made the point (not exactly, actually, but a point close enough to it) that the "difficulty" in 3P is actually the limitation of the perspective in itself, not from the gameplay itself: avoiding guards and making progress.

 

But of course, another way to see those same 3P "limitations" are as a part of the gameplay itself, which is what makes games like Splinter Cell and Tomb Raider still strategic and fun, lining up jumps, and weaving in and out of guard patrols.

 

So then IMO it really comes down to what counts as "gameplay". It's a question of what you really want the gameplay to be centered on, to which the "difficulty" and "fun" of the whole game are understood: the environment (3P; PC gymnastics) or uncertainty (1P).

 

Dom keeps pushing you to admit that 3P is easier, but to me he is begging the question about what kind of gameplay it is easier for. So that's why you two aren't really arguing to each other, but are throwing apples and oranges at each other, IMO, because it may be that a SC design is more challenging in the PC gymnastics category of fun than a thief-like game, and vice versa. Or even more bluntly: More information by definition undermines uncertainty-oriented gameplay. And restricted perspective by definition undermines environmental-oriented gameplay. And "% information <-> % perspective"

 

What I see that matters is that the team has made a conscious choice to make uncertainty the focus of gameplay, in classical Thief style. Once that decision has been made, the question of 1P vs. 3P and what is easier vs. harder and a ton of other features falls into line with it (some features more easily than others), not the other way around.

 

So if you, Arumakani, want to *really* debate this issue on its actual merits, you'll have to argue that the game should be centered on the environment/PC gymnastics and not uncertainty in the classic thief style. But on that point the line has been drawn long ago and there's no turning back.

 

(Except, of course, when you and/or your 3P-rabid friends get your greedy hands on the release and get 3P gameplay up to speed ... in which case, if I didn't say before, I myself would be curious to see and could even have fun with. But it won't be anywhere near the heart of what's great about the project for me.)

Edited May 21, 2006 by demagogue

[Arumakani]

You're obviously a bored student with more time on his hands ZylonBane, then I have...

 

Good points demagogue, but all I wanted to know was how to mod for the 3rd person view. I have had problems with GoldenEye and old Doom games with motion sickness. I still like Halo, Deus Ex etc. It went onto the subject of difficulty, which isn't want I originally wanted for the thread. It just ended up like that.

 

I personally would like a 3rd person stealth game, which can have the option of FP, which basically was like Thief, Splinter Cell and Tenchu, but it's basis in Thief style environments with one huge city to explore. But that's for me to mod or for some company to do. I hope Eidos do something good with the Thief licence. They've said they may do a more modern setting with a new protagonist, but what makes the games for me is Garrett. That slightly bored Harrison Ford in BladeRunner voiceover, whhen Garrett speaks or sets the scene for the mission has more charm then most games have in their entire duration.

Edited May 21, 2006 by Arumakani

[Domarius]

Dom keeps pushing you to admit that 3P is easier, but to me he is begging the question about what kind of gameplay it is easier for.

Only if you have somehow been participating in this entire thread without even knowing what the main points of discussion have been about.

 

This thread is in the context of Thief games, so when I ask "is it easier" the rest of the sentance "in Thief games" is implied, otherwise, why would I have wasted my time describing exactly how it makes a Thief game easier?

 

One of my first posts in this thread, I already described how for other types of games it is better. Enter the Matrix was my example, a game I love.

 

What everyone has been discussing with him is that it makes Thief games easier.

[Arumakani]

Gaming is personal choice with regards to what you play, but Enter the Matrix for me was completely dire pap. Atari obviously hadn't given enough time for Shiny to do a proper job. The only action/fighting sort of game where 3rd person has been well incorporated is Ninja Gaiden. Even then some people had difficulty with the camera and it's view. For slower moving games, such as MGS, SC, and Hitman, the 3rd person is better implemented. A game like Virtua Fighter where the area of combat is small and a larger view of it is applied it's also good.

[SneaksieDave]

Clearly it was taken personally and responded to even more personally:

 

I suggest you not write in this thread as you're acting like a spoilt American teenager, who is becoming abusive.

 

Hi there, I'm in America too. Is there a reason you chose to include nationality in that counter attack? Will race be next? Oops, did I stir up something that's gone cold? Tough shit. Guess that's what Americans do.

[Domarius]

Gaming is personal choice with regards to what you play,

But no one's telling you what to do. We were just trying to explain how the game becomes easier, that is all.

[Ombrenuit]

The more you talk to him, the more the acknowledge his existence and encourage him to continue this conversation which should have ended back six pages ago.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Ombrenuit

[Arumakani]

Clearly it was taken personally and responded to even more personally:

Hi there, I'm in America too. Is there a reason you chose to include nationality in that counter attack? Will race be next? Oops, did I stir up something that's gone cold? Tough shit. Guess that's what Americans do.

 

As I said I took ZylonBane's one personally, not anyone elses, and I was making a comparison, not a generalisation, as not all American teenagers are spoitl. Good for you if you're an American. Pity you obviously can't accept other people's opinions just like ZylonBane. Good thing Domarius and some of the others can.

 

Ombrenuit, we were having a proper discussion about 3rd person modding, difficulty etc until it got sidetracked. Obviously there are a lot of jerks on these forums, you included mate. It's good to see that some of the folk from a certain country getting defensive and taking the whole thing personally, then changing it to race etc. I apologise to the good people from that country who've added to this topic in a thoughtful and nonabusive manner.

Edited May 23, 2006 by Arumakani