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Maximius

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The greatest risk of all is in simply owning a gun. If the question here is the fear of avoiding physical harm, buying a gun elevates the odds of a horrible accident or intentional act by several orders. Gun owners are far more likely to get hurt by their own pieces rather than a robber or something. Its simply more likely that an accident will happen with something you are around all the time and playing with than a random individual selecting you as a target for violent robbery. I myself know only a few people who have been shot intentionally, and only a small handful in violent fights/robberies , but I know lots of people who own or owned guns and they all have a story or two about a hunting accident, a cleaning accident, or something stupid happening.

My family has owned guns all of their life, and no problems have occured. If you use caution in handling them, there's no problems to worry about. These idiots who shoot themselves are always the ones who dont use common sense in handling their weapons, take their guns away and they'll find another way to off themselves.

Gun control will only play into the hands of the politicians and criminals in the long run.

I dont fear the dark...the dark fears me!

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My family has owned guns all of their life, and no problems have occured. If you use caution in handling them, there's no problems to worry about. These idiots who shoot themselves are always the ones who dont use common sense in handling their weapons, take their guns away and they'll find another way to off themselves.

Gun control will only play into the hands of the politicians and criminals in the long run.

 

 

My family has owned guns all of their lives, and had no accidents either. This means nothing in relation to the point that owning a gun raises the risk of a catastrophic accident. That is simply a statistical fact. If you have a gun in your house, the chances of being hurt by a gun go up significantly. Having a lion in your house raises the odds of being eaten by a lion, too. Doesnt mean its going to happen, it means the odds that it can happen go up a lot.

 

How does gun control play to politicians or criminals? Dont tell me that if we take away guns only the criminals will have them, thats nonesense. If we stop letting gun manufacturers flood our streets with cheap guns and ammo the criminals will find they have trouble getting them too. This is how guns find there way to criminal hands, they are cheap and plentiful and almost anyone can get one. Your average Philly or NYC gangbanger isnt buying weapons from Russian arms merchants, they are buying here in the good old US of A.

 

As to playing to politicians, the arms industry has been doing enough of that for all of us for years. Its where they get a huge chunk of the campaign funding. Politicians use the "right" to own a gun as a dodge to distract the masses from real issues. Ask the man on the street about his right to clean water and air, a decent standard of living, or the right to health care for his family and he will say "Huh?" half the time. Ask him if he would voluntarily yield his firearms up, he will leap to his feet in a righteous rage and start spouting crap about our Founding Fathers and defending his property from the hordes of criminals waiting to steal it all.

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Politicians use the "right" to own a gun as a dodge to distract the masses from real issues. Ask the man on the street about his right to clean water and air, a decent standard of living, or the right to health care for his family and he will say "Huh?" half the time. Ask him if he would voluntarily yield his firearms up, he will leap to his feet in a righteous rage and start spouting crap about our Founding Fathers and defending his property from the hordes of criminals waiting to steal it all.
You say that as though you expect politicians are meant to give us good things. Politicians never EVER bring any good in this world-dont you realize that? You will never see anything good come out of politicans, that's why I dont expect anything from them. People who cant succeed at anything in life and are of no real use to society flock to political offices or become celebrities so they can get their screwed up behavior subsidized by the public. I dont want politicans meddling with health care-just imagine how many paitients would die if guys like the ones who run FEMA were in charge! :laugh: I want them out of my life as much as possible, and gun control is just another way of shackling us. Try reading this article a kind soul once showed me you might learn a few things. http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml Oh if you are going to leave for Canada, by all means do so-but I think after a few years up there you will find them to be just as flawed as the rest of us. :rolleyes:

I dont fear the dark...the dark fears me!

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Any discussion of legalising vs banning something are ultimately flawed, in that they assume that you can solve a problem by attacking its symptoms.

 

You can pass as many laws as you like restricting guns, drugs, terrorism, glorifying terrorism, thinking about terrorism, failing to express adequate disapproval of terrorism, ad nauseam, without making an atom of difference to anything. Unless you tackle the root of the issue (poverty, perceived injustices or whatever), the problem is not going away no matter how many grandstanding politicians come up with Great New Schemes to eradicate social ills.

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john d: You say that as though you expect politicians are meant to give us good things.

 

Are you kidding? I never said, nor do I believe, anything of the kind. Politicians are a class of people who manage the state, at various levels, along with bureaucrats their non-elected counterparts. They manage it to the benefit of itself and those with the wealth and access to lobby/threaten/make deals with it. Oftentimes those interests are in agreement, sometimes not, but the bottom line is its rare to never that any of them work directly for our interests, the great mass of working stiffs who actually make the world work.

 

john d: I dont want politicans meddling with health care-just imagine how many paitients would die if guys like the ones who run FEMA were in charge! :laugh:

 

Remember Katrina?

 

john d: I want them out of my life as much as possible, and gun control is just another way of shackling us.

 

Dude, you +are+ shackled. Thats the big trick, you are already hog tied and ready for the BBQ. The reason you are allowed to have a gun? Because you dont really present a threat (with or without one) to the power of the state and weapons manufacturers have successfully lobbied the state to allow people to buy all the guns they want. The arms industry INVENTED the american love of guns. It only started around the late 19th century with the rise of industrialized gun factories and the ability to make the things cheap enough for anyone to own a reliable one.

 

Try reading this article a kind soul once showed me you might learn a few things. http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel120501.shtml Oh if you are going to leave for Canada, by all means do so-but I think after a few years up there you will find them to be just as flawed as the rest of us. :rolleyes:

 

Oh I will, Ill leave you to a dying nation, sick with toxins and poverty, hungry children and dangerous streets. Canada has these as well, but no where nearly as many. Again, its simply the numbers. New Zealand sounds best of all to be true but thats too far away. And Ill read your article and provide annotated critcisms, give me a day or so.

Edited by Maximius
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Any discussion of legalising vs banning something are ultimately flawed, in that they assume that you can solve a problem by attacking its symptoms.

 

You can pass as many laws as you like restricting guns, drugs, terrorism, glorifying terrorism, thinking about terrorism, failing to express adequate disapproval of terrorism, ad nauseam, without making an atom of difference to anything. Unless you tackle the root of the issue (poverty, perceived injustices or whatever), the problem is not going away no matter how many grandstanding politicians come up with Great New Schemes to eradicate social ills.

 

 

I think its really two different issues. Banning guns in the right now sense here in Philly is a necessity like fixing the levees in New Orleans after Katrina. Its a public emergency here. People are getting gunned down, accidentally and intentionally, every single day here. Three or more this weekend.

 

You are absolutely correct about your greater point. Poverty, a culture that commercializes violence for the consumption of children, and a whole shitload of cheap guns are a really dangerous combination.

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Maximius, it is interesting to note that Canada has a higher per capita level of gun ownership than the USA, yet it has much lower rates of accidental and intentional gun related injuries. The difference may be largely a cultural matter - Canadians primarily use guns to defend themselves against Grizzly bears or for recreational hunting, and Canadians generally have a culture of safety and restraint. Americans on the other hand, have a culture of paranoia, recklessness and violence, and own guns primarily as a percieved defence against their fellow man, or their government, or as a form of phallic extension, very rarely for a legitimate activity such as keeping the bears at bay.

 

In my experience, laws to ban or heavily restrict the use of something don't often have much effect on their actual use - the demand for things like guns is driven by very basic human drives (eg fear) that are a far stronger motivator than the threat of being fined or incarcerated.

 

If you want to remove guns, the correct (although not necessarily the easiest) method is to remove source of motivation that drives the demand to posess them, eg reducing poverty, disparity between different social groups, and by also limiting the supply of weapons, by putting a massive tax on arms production, so that guns are only affordable to those that genuinely need them (the government could manufacture weapons for its own military itself as and when it needs them, rather than perpetuating the constant arms trade that goes on with the current military-industrial machine).

 

There is no legitimate reason for anyone to own a handgun in a civilised society. But a lot of Americans are aware that their society is not so civilised, and feel the need to arm themselves in leiu of a geniune society of laws.

 

I'd go to New Zealand over Canada, Max - much nicer climate, and while the people there do talk a bit funny, they are a decent mob. And you don't need a gun when you can do a Haka - people will either run in fear or die laughing, depending on how well you pull it off (if you aren't a Maori built like a brick shithouse, the latter is more likely). :)

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Your average Philly or NYC gangbanger isnt buying weapons from Russian arms merchants, they are buying here in the good old US of A.

Reminds me of Yuri Orlov...

 

the demand for things like guns is driven by very basic human drives (eg fear) that are a far stronger motivator than the threat of being fined or incarcerated.

hmm, somehow dying seems less scary than being fined, getting a criminal record, or being incarcerated.

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I just found out something even scarier than having guns on the streets. There is talk of placing National Guardsman on patrol in some of the worst sections of Philadelphia. Also, according to a colleague the top five or six American cities are all experiencing waves of violence. And yesterday, the federal government announced its further restricting money for things like English as a 2nd language and Adult literacy/GED (a high school equivalency test) education and making it easier to throw people off of public support. This will of course increase the desperation and sense of abandonment on the street not to mention the actual physical suffering that will be going on while closing off some of the few remaining avenues out of the ghettos.

 

New Zealand does sound nice, maybe Ill take a trip there in a year or so...

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