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More Intelligent Enemies


goingsupersonic
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sounds to me, what is needed is pretty much what Thief tried to do already with varying levels of success. In a stealth game, if one is good enough to sneak through a mission without giving any alerts or hints away of thier presence then the AI should stay as dumb and unconcerned as they were at the very start. once a player is spotted the AI become more alert and things get tougher. what i would love to see is this: not only have the AI become more alert/sensitive when they've spotted you, but also have them be able to pick up on small clues cumulatively. for example if 1 AI sees 1 door left open, no big deal, but if it sees 1 door left open then a stack of coins missing, then a valuable plate missing, a trunk open, and a torch doused, i think that AI should start looking for an intruder. this would reward those who are sneaky enough to leave no trace, but also build up the difficulty as the mission progresses and the AI start to become suspicious. i agree that difficulty level doesn't need to change. I'm ok with the AI learning anything or adapting to things that they are able to OBSERVE, but not to the AI getting harder when they have no reason. this could be as simple to do as scripting an increase in alertness level if X number of clues are observed within Y amount of time. actually getting the AI to pick up on the clues could be a lot harder i guess, but i don't know much about coding and all that. as far as randomness goes i think people tend to be a lot less random than most of think provided we are talking about a routine situation. serious randomness and improvisation doesn't often occur until the person experiences stress or barriers to the goal at hand. I'm in the military and i've observed people standing watch and making rounds for about 15 years now, and i can tell you that a person on a patrol or round tends to take the route in the same order every time and tends to take very close to the same amount of time, every time. yes, they might stop for a minute to gaze out the window or talk for a minute to a passing sentry, or walk into the trees or other secluded spot to take a leak once in a while but for the most part a round that takes 35 minutes is going to take between 33 and 39 minutes almost every single time. I know, for instance, that my ship's security watchstander starts his round at the top of the hour and that if I walk into the A/C flat at five minutes after the hour i'll find the watchstander in that space taking readings on the A/C, and at 15 minutes after they'll be forward by the paint locker or bow-prop. people are creatures of habit so it is not unrealistic for AI to be pattern-based, too much randomness would detract from the reality and gameplay not add to it but a small amount would be great. think of randomness like salt.

 

 

Word.

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To get a bit back on topic, I'd rule out ramped difficulty for a stealth game. I have two apps in which it works quite well. The first is a vertical shooter in which the enemies get progressivly bigger and tougher. The second is a beat 'em up in which the CPU gets faster and more aggressive.

 

Translated to a stealth game it would mean that the AI would get more sensitive to acoustic or visual clues as the player progresses, and maybe tougher to neutralize as well. However, how would the program know that an adequate difficulty has been found for a player? Only when the player fails. In the two above examples, it doesn't bother you because that brand of games doesn't need a conclusion. You happily accept that the space invaders drop down forever and the ghosts will chase you eternaly through that damned maze.

 

As soon as story is involved, things change. To find the point in which difficulty is engaging and failure is something to edge you on instead of frustrating is hard - a ramped difficulty would likely cross the line, because to keep the challenge it gets harder and only stops on failure of the player.

 

I really have no idea what a good dynamic difficulty system for a story driven game would be, except a human mediator - and even a good GM often fails to engage all of his/her players equally.

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Meeeeeh.

As for clues for guards, it would be as simple as having their sensory abilities increase slightly with every clue and make them play a certain reaction when too many clues have been witnessed (saying "something is wrong here", alerting the other guards etc.).

Increasing difficulty: I don't think it would be ok within a single mission (other than the above situation). As for a campaign, it's ok to get tougher guards as the campaign progresses I guess.

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I have mixed feelings about randomness, but I definitely do not like the idea of adaptive alertness. Here's why.

 

One aspect of Thief I have always enjoyed, apart from the fact that it is a great game, is the social discussion among players concerning "How did you do that?" This was an important aspect of the ghosting community in it heyday. Status was achieved when a player accomplished something others could not.

 

Slightly random patrols are not a problem in this regard. A repeating situation should occur eventually, but you may have to wait longer for it. It is not much different from having multiple AI on patrol, each with its own timing.

 

I like the Dark Mod team's design (as stated by Springheel) of minor random variations about a predictable mean. I think that would make for more interesting game play, even if it does make comparison of ghost results more problematic. I can live with that, and I look forward to it.

 

What I would not like to see is AI with adaptive alertness, hearing, and vision based on skill of the player. In my view, that would make discussion of game play and strategy meaningless. I prefer to select my own skill level, not let the game do it for me. If that adaptive behavior is contemplated, I agree with Komag that it should be an option, just as it was for Far Cry. I never exercised that option.

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I don't know how well the idea would work for battles, unless you're talking about training them against human opponents before we release and then starting them out with their learned strategy. Otherwise, the player could go all the way thru a campaign without fighting anyone until the last mission, and the AI wouldn't have anything to adapt to until the player started fighting them in that last mission, and that's probably not enough iterations to become any more challenging.

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Isn't the whole point being that the Thief is good as a stealth attacker and not good as a fighter. This would imply he has an advantage from the shadows and a disadvantage out of them? If he's spotted his chances were slim anyway.

ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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did I hear something about 1000 AI's? :blink:

No, no, you didn't. sparhawk was saying that we don't support 1000 AIs. :)

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Hi All,

 

The thing I find most annoying in games, is the predictability of AI. Humans are not predictable. Personally, chuck out your game theory, and give us tough games... by that I mean, AI that are not the same every time I play the game. I mean, their patrols vary; when they detect a clue, they actively hunt the player for a period, and not just in the same room as in thievery, but do as a human would, and search the house. It annoys me when they give up too early, or dont hunt thoroughly enough. They should explore shadows... if the thief knows they will, he'll alter his behaviour accordingly.. and be more careful about clues...

 

Then there's the other advantage, multiplayer games are always a vast leap for someone coming purely from SP. But if a game is adaptive, each time the player plays a level, then the player would be more skilled coming into a MP environment.

 

I just think game ai's have become too predictable.. some of you have said making it adaptive would make it too hard. I think you are thinking from the wrong end of the stick. Yes it would, but it would add a higher degree of fear into the players mind, and lets face it, thats what we are into in games. Its not the killing, its the fear a good game can generate. Doom is the perfect example. Increase the fear level, and you increase the intensity of the game play, and the enjoyment. Its no good just upping the difficulty, I play all games on the hardest setting. What you need to do, is up the unpredictability. Just as in the example given of soldiers on patrol. Just as humans are slightly unpredictable.. and it varies with the person, as it should with ai type. It doesn't have to be harder to be better, just not as predictable. The best part of that, is the ai would be different each time you play the game. (this is where a random placement of goodies would be great each time a lvl loads).

 

Venus

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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I think you should learn about game theory before you make such sweeping conclusions. You can't just make AI behave like humans, because they are not. And every behaviour that you code in must be considered for exploit. Searching the entire house? On what basis? What is to be considered a house? When should it start searching? These are just a few questions that are easy to answer for a human, but I can assure you that any answer you come up with, I can show you how to exploit it, when implemented in an AI.

Gerhard

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I never said it would be easy. Nothing good is. lol... However, if ppl keep sticking to the same old presumptions about what works, without exploring other possibilities, it will never get close to being convincing ai. All I'd like to see, is AI develop a certain amount of unpredictability. Sure that's not too hard. Sure, if a game requires an AI to follow preset waypts, then there's bugger all chance of adding any unpredictability to it. However, I'm sure there are other ways of doing it.

 

You guys can say what you like lol, those of you who are into this, know what is and is not possible. As someone who plays and maps for games, I'm telling you what I'd like. lol... Like it or lump it lol... :P

 

Venus

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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