Polycounts: Higher Than You Might Think?

[SneaksieDave]

Since I've started learning my way around Blender (and since the ASE import script author fixed some new bugs recently), I've been looking around at some of our models to see how they're done, trying to learn techniques.

 

To cut to the chase: some of our polycounts are alarming. No finger pointing, but some of them are just way too high. No, I'm not some accomplished modeller yet, maybe someday. But I have mapped for more than a decade, across numerous game engines, and I know about engine demands, optimization, and needless waste. The "right" polycount for an object is obviously not something easily defined, but if adding a few TDM characters to a map can cut the framerate in half, you have to expect the same thing to happen from a fully decorated scene complete with tables, banners, candles, particles, loot, books, and other decorations. And no, I'm not really talking about the characters; I realize they are a whole other realm of complexity. But our other objects can and probably should be simplified a bit. Doom3's lighting and texturing techniques can go a long way toward faking geometry that needn't be modelled.

 

Instead of us saying "Hey you! Your model has too many polys!", I think a good start to addressing this issue is a very simple course of action: how about we list polycounts for each model in the gallery, as policy? This will give everyone bases for comparison, ideas of poly budgets and reasonable standards, and ensure that no models are needlessly over-complex. Simply put, the polycount of a model should be known by those who would use it.

 

I'll get the ball rolling (and do them all myself, gradually, if needbe). I'll post numbers here, but I don't have access to the gallery, so someone else would have to add that to the model descriptions, assuming you guys agree it's a good idea. Remember to get the face value in tris, not quads.

 

 

Going right down the list, for ease of tracking:

 

Architecture

Gate segment: 280 (suggestion: bars could be 4 sided, rotated 45 degrees to front; use highpoly to make round normalmap)

Iron gate: 1276 (suggestion: bars could be 4 sided, rotated 45 degrees to front; use highpoly to make round normalmap)

Warehouse steps: missing?

Windows

Bwindow01: 344

 

Edit: It's become apparent that a lot is missing from the gallery, so that's going to complicate this effort immensely. I guess we should add them as we go? I'll continue listing as soon as we clear up the content issue.

 

 

The Big Edit: (last edited: 8/25)

Okay, here's the WIP list. I may/may not include new additions, because they should be submitted to the gallery with counts in the first place. Will update this as I make changes.

 

--\darkmod\props\mechanical\numberwheel.lwo :  40
--\darkmod\props\mechanical\numberwheel_button.lwo :  10
--\darkmod\props\mechanical\numberwheel_lever.lwo :  90
--\darkmod\props\mechanical\numberwheel_main.lwo :  774;  simplify decorative curls
--\darkmod\props\mechanical\machine01.lwo :  1056;  roundness simplification;  fix origin
--\darkmod\props\mechanical\fan.lwo :  212
--\darkmod\props\mechanical\gear.lwo :  180
\darkmod\props\wearables\spectacles.ase :  can't import!
--\darkmod\props\wearables\breastplatelow.lwo :  272;  fix origin?
\darkmod\props\tools\broomstick.ase :  can't import!
--\darkmod\props\tools\brush.lwo :  80
--\darkmod\props\tools\anvil.lwo :  115
--\darkmod\props\tools\smithyhammer.lwo :  51
--\darkmod\props\tools\spade.lwo :  274
--\darkmod\props\tools\pickaxe.lwo :  136
--\darkmod\props\readables\book_open1.lwo :  64
--\darkmod\props\readables\book_red1.lwo :  298
--\darkmod\props\readables\book_t1.lwo :  298
--\darkmod\props\readables\bookrow1.lwo :  176
--\darkmod\props\readables\paper1.lwo :  66
--\darkmod\props\readables\scroll1.lwo :  212
--\darkmod\props\musical\grammo3.ase :  833;  roundness simplification
--\darkmod\props\musical\notestand.ase :  1438;  many possibilities for optimization
--\darkmod\props\musical\lyre.lwo :  244;  square poles
--\darkmod\props\misc\bell01.ase :  504
--\darkmod\props\misc\bell02.ase :  192
--\darkmod\props\misc\Lightgem.ase :  8
--\darkmod\props\misc\waterpump.ase :  1162;  detail simplifications
--\darkmod\props\misc\dice.ase :  12
--\darkmod\props\misc\Lightgem.lwo :  8
--\darkmod\props\misc\anchor.lwo :  546;  contains 2 spheres
--\darkmod\props\misc\cart_low.lwo :  1158;  several possibilites for optimization
--\darkmod\props\misc\numberwheel.lwo :  DUPLICATE, see mechanical
--\darkmod\props\misc\numberwheel_button.lwo :  DUPLICATE, see mechanical
--\darkmod\props\misc\numberwheel_lever.lwo :  DUPLICATE, see mechanical
--\darkmod\props\misc\numberwheel_main.lwo :  DUPLICATE, see mechanical
--\darkmod\props\misc\marketstall.lwo :  114
--\darkmod\props\misc\wheelbarrow02.lwo :  1284;  reduce on round poles, wheel hub, cargo
--\darkmod\props\misc\well.lwo :  249
--\darkmod\props\misc\rope_coil01.lwo :  2040;  obvious optimizations
--\darkmod\props\misc\wheelbarrow01.lwo :  736;  a lot of roundness waste
--\darkmod\props\misc\wood_pallette.lwo :  192
\darkmod\props\misc\PERFTESTMULTI0.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\misc\PERFTESTMULTI.lwo :  
--\darkmod\props\loot\coinsa.lwo :  34
--\darkmod\props\loot\coinsb.lwo :  34
--\darkmod\props\loot\coinsc.lwo :  34
--\darkmod\props\loot\goblet1.lwo :  126 model, 32 CM
--\darkmod\props\loot\plate_g.lwo :  128
--\darkmod\props\loot\amulet_round_g.lwo :  330;  perhaps simplify round gem
--\darkmod\props\loot\diamond.lwo :  32
--\darkmod\props\loot\gold_coin.lwo :  34
--\darkmod\props\loot\purse_p.lwo :  272
--\darkmod\props\loot\purse_p_belt.lwo :  272
--\darkmod\props\loot\purse_p_goldspilt.lwo :  714;  the coins are the killer here
--\darkmod\props\loot\ring_diamond.lwo :  128
--\darkmod\props\loot\ring_ruby.lwo :  128;  skin/def instead of duplicate?
--\darkmod\props\loot\ruby.lwo :  32;  skin/def instead of duplicate?
--\darkmod\props\loot\vase_g.lwo :  120
--\darkmod\props\loot\wbottle03.lwo :  199;  suggest normalmaps for lip/ridges/detail
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\hanging_lantern.lwo :  278
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\wallight1.lwo :  156
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\roundstreetlamp.lwo :  512;  round, detailed
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\squarehanginglamp.lwo :  160
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\squarestreetlamp.lwo :  320
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\lamp_shaded.lwo :  232
--\darkmod\props\lights\non-extinguishable\arclight.lwo :  976;  too detailed at top
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\bracket.lwo :  38
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\chandelier1.lwo :  751;  roundness detail
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\gaslight4.lwo :  816; remove/n-map some small detail
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\wallcandles1.lwo :  550;  roundness detail
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\candlestick2.lwo :  291
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\torch.lwo :  248; a lot of wasted detail esp. at top
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\candlestick1.lwo :  255
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\candelabra01.lwo :  660;  maybe some foot detail
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\candle_holder.lwo :  222
--\darkmod\props\lights\extinguishable\candle1.lwo :  33
\darkmod\props\kitchen\hanging_goose.ase :  can't import!
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\cookpot.lwo :  224
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\plate_s.lwo :  128
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\sack1.lwo :  204
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\cake.lwo :  20;  ...increase sides?
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\cheapbeermug.lwo :  124
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\muffin.lwo :  48
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\wbottle01.lwo :  199;  much of the neck detail could be normalmap
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\wbottle02.lwo :  199;  duplicate?  same optimization as 01
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\chamberpot.lwo :  368;  maybe handle roundness, rim
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\goblet2.lwo :  126
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\sack_bent.lwo :  144
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\bottle02.lwo :  199;  neck detail
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\bottle01.lwo :  199;  same
--\darkmod\props\kitchen\sack_closed.lwo :  144
--\darkmod\props\junk\wbottle01_broken.lwo :  97
--\darkmod\props\junk\cartwheel.lwo :  520
--\darkmod\props\junk\broken_cart.lwo :  1166;  a few areas have possibilities
--\darkmod\props\junk\plank_long.lwo :  12
--\darkmod\props\junk\plank_short.lwo :  12
--\darkmod\props\junk\plank_longer.lwo :  12
--\darkmod\props\furniture\woodenchest.ase :  334
--\darkmod\props\furniture\woodenchest_left.ase :  89
--\darkmod\props\furniture\woodenchest_main.ase :  156
--\darkmod\props\furniture\woodenchest_right.ase :  89
--\darkmod\props\furniture\winerack.ase :  208
--\darkmod\props\furniture\bookshelf1.lwo :  158
--\darkmod\props\furniture\cabinet1.lwo :  826;  knobs as normalmap instead of detail
--\darkmod\props\furniture\commode.lwo :  488
--\darkmod\props\furniture\desk1.lwo :  552
--\darkmod\props\furniture\wardrobe.lwo :  326
--\darkmod\props\furniture\Bathtube.lwo :  654
--\darkmod\props\furniture\dresser02.lwo :  84
--\darkmod\props\furniture\winerack.lwo :  252
--\darkmod\props\furniture\bookshelf_huge_01.lwo :  2076
--\darkmod\props\furniture\bookshelf_huge_geared_02.lwo :  4692
--\darkmod\props\furniture\bookshelf_huge_geared_01.lwo :  2664
--\darkmod\props\furniture\bookshelf_huge_02.lwo :  4080
--\darkmod\props\furniture\tables\coffeetable1.lwo :  984;  wasted detail in legs
--\darkmod\props\furniture\tables\dining_table1.lwo :  366
--\darkmod\props\furniture\tables\endtable1.lwo :  346
--\darkmod\props\furniture\tables\rtable1.lwo :  632;  wasted detail in leg
--\darkmod\props\furniture\tables\wtable1.lwo :  504
--\darkmod\props\furniture\tables\dining_table2.lwo :  366
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\pianostool.ase :  1596;  wasted detail in legs
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\armchair1.lwo :  426
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\dchair2.lwo :  312
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\sofa1.lwo :  720;  very detailed
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\vic_diningchair1.lwo :  460
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\wchair1.lwo :  402
--\darkmod\props\furniture\seating\rusticchair.lwo :  276
--\darkmod\props\furniture\beds\4posterbed.lwo :  834;  detail in supports
--\darkmod\props\furniture\beds\singlebed1.lwo :  444
--\darkmod\props\fireplace\burntwood.lwo :  158
--\darkmod\props\fireplace\grate.lwo :  276
--\darkmod\props\fireplace\tools.lwo :  378
--\darkmod\props\dungeon\torturechair.lwo :  1178;  bevels probably aren't necessary
--\darkmod\props\dungeon\Stock.lwo :  261
--\darkmod\props\decorative\vaseantique.ase :  450;  remove segments along body
--\darkmod\props\decorative\orchid.lwo :  669!;  a lot of unnecessary detail (leaves, stem)
--\darkmod\props\decorative\vase1.lwo :  492;  unneeded bevels, too round
--\darkmod\props\decorative\globe.lwo :  2418!;  a lot of modeled detail here 
--\darkmod\props\decorative\builder_guard_statuette.lwo :  915;  simplify as statue
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\banner1.lwo :  134
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\castironsign1.lwo :  408
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\painting01.lwo :  32
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\painting01_L.lwo :  32
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\painting01_m.lwo :  32
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\painting1.lwo :  30
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\snswallmount.lwo :  130
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\curtain01right.lwo :  324
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\curtain01left.lwo :  324
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_wall\antlers.lwo :  956;  perhaps simplify rounds?
--\darkmod\props\decorative\decorative_oversized\font1.lwo :  470
\darkmod\props\containers\barrel01.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\crate01.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\barrell_large.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\bucket.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\bucket_wood.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\crate02.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\crate03.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\winerack.lwo :  
\darkmod\props\containers\sack1_low.lwo :  
\darkmod\player_equipment\healthpotion.lwo :  
\darkmod\player_equipment\holywater.lwo :  
\darkmod\player_equipment\health_potion.lwo :  
\darkmod\player_equipment\holy_water.lwo :  
\darkmod\nature\plant_02.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\plant_05_big.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\plant_05.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\plant_03.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\smallrock2.lwo :  
\darkmod\nature\smallrock1.lwo :  
\darkmod\nature\animals\snail.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\gw_dm1_tree.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\gw_dm1_tree_02.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\gw_dm1_tree_03.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\gw_dm1_tree_big.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\gw_dm1_treestump.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\tree_01.ase :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\pine_tree_skeleton_high.lwo :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\pine_tree_skeleton_low.lwo :  
\darkmod\nature\trees\pine_tree_skeleton_med.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\gkey1.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\skey1.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\door1.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\door02.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\warehouse_front_doorframe.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\mansion_front_doorframe.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\mansion_front_doorframe_nowindow.lw
o :  
\darkmod\door_related\windowed_door_01.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\mansion_door_01.lwo :  
\darkmod\door_related\windowed_door_01_handle.lwo :  
--\darkmod\architecture\irongate.ase :  1276;  square poles angled 45 deg
--\darkmod\architecture\irongatesegment.ase :  280;  square poles angled 45 deg
\darkmod\architecture\dome1.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\hallway01.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\rail1.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlearch.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlearchwvines.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castleeightwalltrim.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlefivewalltrim.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillar.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillarbrokenbottom.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillarbrokenpiece.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillarbrokenpiecebase.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillarbrokentop.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castletenwalltrim.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlewalltrim.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlearchsmall.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlegroovedpillarbig.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlegroovedpillardisplay.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlegroovedpillarhuge.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlegroovedpillarmed.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlegroovedpillarsmall.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillarbig.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillardisplay.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillarsmall.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillartwobig.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\castle\castlepillartwohuge.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\warehouse\wareouse_long_roof.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\windows\manwindow01.lwo :  
--\darkmod\architecture\windows\bwindow01.lwo :  344
\darkmod\architecture\windows\warehouse_window_dark.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\windows\warehouse_window_light.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\windows\window_bars.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\windows\bricked_window.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\windows\manwindow_tall_01.lwo :  
\darkmod\architecture\windows\man_sky_window_01.lwo :  
\weapons\waterarrow.ase :  
\weapons\ropearrow.ase :  
\weapons\noisemaker.ase :  
\weapons\gasarrow.ase :  
\weapons\firearrow.ase :  
\weapons\vinearrow.ase :  
\weapons\noisemaker_collision.ase :  
\weapons\hammer.lwo :  
\weapons\broadhead.lwo :  
\weapons\broadhead_collision.lwo :  
\weapons\broadhead_broken_tip.lwo :  
\weapons\broadhead_broken_back.lwo :  
\weapons\longswordlow.lwo :  
\weapons\broadhead_broken2.lwo :  
\weapons\broadhead_broken1.lwo :  
\props\misc\Lightgem.ase :  
\props\misc\Lightgem.lwo :  
\props\pipekit\tap\tap1.lwo :

[pakmannen]

Right, I should probably make a new topic about this, but members can now use this info to log on to the gallery:

 

Gallery login

user: darkmod

pass: unclegay

[Domarius]

You can give poly count budgets for objects based on their use.

 

Characters should roughly be the same amount. But things we expect to see in droves, eg. your basic guards, and zombies, should have a lower budget than most.

 

Common items should also have a budget.

 

I think your system might be good. That way people can get an idea of what is possible with how many polys, and may feel guilty and go back and try to re-work theirs.

[Springheel]

It's become apparent that a lot is missing from the gallery

 

What do you mean by that? I haven't updated the gallery in about a month, but there haven't been THAT many models uploaded during that time.

[SneaksieDave]

members can now use this info to log on to the gallery

Cool. Yeah we should probably include this in that info thread, the one with the FTP and CVS info.

 

may feel guilty and go back and try to re-work theirs

Hehe... well, we can cross our fingers, I guess.

 

What do you mean by that? I haven't updated the gallery in about a month, but there haven't been THAT many models uploaded during that time.

Disclaimer: there's a chance I could be wrong here. Maybe we need closer relation between gallery structure and directory structure? Here's an example of what I'm talking about. In "Architecture" (and window subfolder), 8 objects in total are mentioned. But not only do those seem to be include items which I can't find in the folders (where are these warehouse windows?), but the /architecture folder itself (on the HD) contains 2 ASEs and 34(!) LWOs, 36 items in total.

 

Again, this could be differences in layout between gallery and HD folders, but I'm not sure, because I didn't go through them. The gallery shows a total of 157 objects, but a quick ASE and LWO search of the /models folder yields 260 objects in total (I assume some might be sub-parts).

 

If we have a 1:1 relation between folders and gallery structure (and naming), it'll make this task a snap.

[oDDity]

This is exactly what happens all the time in commercial games. You see easrly screenshots of leet looking graphics, but by the time the game is released, everything has been whittled down a lot and doens't look as good.

[Springheel]

In "Architecture" (and window subfolder), 8 objects in total are mentioned. But not only do those seem to be include items which I can't find in the folders (where are these warehouse windows?), but the /architecture folder itself (on the HD) contains 2 ASEs and 34(!) LWOs, 36 items in total.

 

Oh, that's right. I haven't included many things in the architecture section. Anything that seems like it's part of a specific map, like half an abbey, or a cave wall, or something like that I haven't included (except for some of Odd's warehouse stuff, just to get it out there). I've been using that section for simple meshes like pillars, arches, etc, that can fairly easily be dropped into many different maps. The stairs are a grey area.

 

If someone wants to start adding those things that's fine, I just find it hard to preview them or take screenshots because they're often so large.

[SneaksieDave]

Heh, gallery re-org?

 

So, could it go 1:1, all in gallery = all in folders? That way there's no confusion as to what's in, what's not, what's displayed, what's not (and why), and we'd have polycounts and inventory for every model in the mod.

 

 

Edit: If it's going to happen, the first thing needed is a list of all in the folders placed into the gallery. Probably need to wipe the existing files, unless someone wants the hair-ripping task of sorting between what's in and what's not. However that is to be done, then we could have empty images until they are filled in, one by one, no need to rush. But at least they'd be there, and I/we could get on the polycount listings.

 

Edit2: Nevermind that last bit; whoever is going to head up the gallery, I don't need it really. I'll make a directory listing of the files I can work with locally and start tallying polycounts either way. If/when the gallery is set up all-inclusive, we can include the counts, and until then, I'll just work on it, keep it, post it here, or whatever.

[Springheel]

Probably need to wipe the existing files, unless someone wants the hair-ripping task of sorting between what's in and what's not.

 

Whoa, slow down. Other than the architecture section, everything else in the gallery duplicates the folder structure of the mod. There's no need for a reorganization unless someone wants to start adding every single architectural model that's on CVS. And even if so, you'd just have to add some new folders and maybe move around an image or two.

 

There shouldn't be any folders or images in the model pages that aren't also on CVS (with one exception that's listed). If there are, then someone has forgotten to upload something.

[SneaksieDave]

But there's a disparity of 100+ models (157 listed, 260 in total), and the architecture folder only accounts for less than 30 of those. If we're going to list them, we should probably list them all, right? Otherwise, what's the deciding factor?

[Springheel]

None of the models from the mansion_alpha have been added yet, so that's probably fifteen or twenty. There's probably thirty or forty in the architecture folder (well over twenty castle ones alone). I'm not sure how many other ones have been added this summer that haven't been updated. There are also cases where two or more models are shown in the same picture (both potions, or the long, med and short planks).

 

I also didn't add models that clearly were not working (like the pine trees).

[SneaksieDave]

Sorry, that number should be 249, not 260 (I must have originally searched on "ase" and "lwo" instead of ".ase" and ".lwo"). Run a search on our /models directory for *.ase, *.lwo to verify.

 

42 ase

207 lwo

 

 

Edit: Yeah I'd imagine the bulk of them come from the mansion. Either way, it's cool. I'll work from the list I have here, and we can include them in the gallery when ready, and until then, we'll have a text listing instead, no big deal.

[pakmannen]

Yes, the gallery should mirror the models folder. And now that you all are able to login.. get to work ;-)

 

(No really, Spring mentioned in the other thread that he will be short on time the next following months, so it would be great if the modelers could help out with this.)

[OrbWeaver]

What we need is for a l33t web designer to build an application which will automatically traverse the CVS repository, parse the ASE and LWO models for their materials, then load the images, render the model to a preview image and build the web gallery automatically.

[Domarius]

Well, the automatic rendering part wouldn't be web programming, just the building of the images into a page.

 

Writing a program that automatically renders has gotta be more work than just creating a preview pic oneself.

 

Once everyone gets into the habit of always rendering a preview pic when submitting, it shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Springheel]

Seeing as most people post a screenshot before uploading anyway, that shouldn't be a problem.