Radiants Crappy Vertex Editing...

[AluminumHaste]

This is really a complaint with all the radiant varieties. The vertex editing sucks. All I want to do is make an 8 sided brush, and make the top face smaller than the bottom one, so you basically have a cone that's 8 sided.

 

Maybe I just don't know all the tools in radiant, but is there a way to select a face, and shrink/expand it?? In Max/Maya any 3D modelling program, this is pretty simple.

 

Does anyone know how to do this?? Am I just missing something??

[OrbWeaver]

Why not just create an 8-sided cone (Brush -> Cone...) and chop the top off with the clipper tool?

[AluminumHaste]

Why not just create an 8-sided cone (Brush -> Cone...) and chop the top off with the clipper tool?

 

EDIT: OMG I didn't see that , I think I'm going to go downstairs, get a hammer, and bash my face in.

[Komag]

But what you're asking is still valid in other situations where a neat solution won't work

[OrbWeaver]

I don't think I've ever used the vertex editing feature while mapping, although I have used edge editing to make wedges or angled walls. Generally most shapes that would require vertex editing can be made by clipping or combining solid brushes; it is just a slightly different mindset to working with 3D modellers.

[greebo]

I personally find it helpful to keep in mind that brushes are in fact defined as planes and not as a bunch of vertices like in modeling applications. The actual form of a brush, its edges and its corners are calculated out of the intersection of these planes.

 

You often can't just drag around one single vertex of the brushes as it would cause the adjacent planes to twist, which is impossible. Manipulating the edges works indeed far better, as Orbweaver pointed out.

[OrbWeaver]

Heh, I didn't even know that. No wonder stuff goes wonky when you move individual vertices.

[sparhawk]

I personally find it helpful to keep in mind that brushes are in fact defined as planes and not as a bunch of vertices like in modeling applications. The actual form of a brush, its edges and its corners are calculated out of the intersection of these planes.

 

You often can't just drag around one single vertex of the brushes as it would cause the adjacent planes to twist, which is impossible. Manipulating the edges works indeed far better, as Orbweaver pointed out.

 

Ah! That is indeed a very usefull information, because I also had problems and didn't understand why the editor didn't let me do it.

[AluminumHaste]

I personally find it helpful to keep in mind that brushes are in fact defined as planes and not as a bunch of vertices like in modeling applications. The actual form of a brush, its edges and its corners are calculated out of the intersection of these planes.

 

You often can't just drag around one single vertex of the brushes as it would cause the adjacent planes to twist, which is impossible. Manipulating the edges works indeed far better, as Orbweaver pointed out.

 

I also didn't know that, thank you that pretty much explains every problem I've ever had with Radiant's vertex editing.

And I do usually clip most thing into the shapes I want. I used to try and vertex manipulate everything (like in max) to the shape I want. But I read some tuts and they all said; "try and clip brushes into the shape you want".

 

Can somebody tell me where a good tutorial is for clipping?? What is the 3rd clip point for?? When do you ever need it. If it's for what I think it's for, than it's very useful.

[OrbWeaver]

The clipping function uses a plane to clip, not just a line (I guess this just involves adding a new plane to define the brush which is already defined by planes). Three points are needed to completely specify a plane in three dimensions, hence the third clip point (which is rarely used in practice).

[AluminumHaste]

The clipping function uses a plane to clip, not just a line (I guess this just involves adding a new plane to define the brush which is already defined by planes). Three points are needed to completely specify a plane in three dimensions, hence the third clip point (which is rarely used in practice).

 

I was hoping that you could use the third point, to specify another angle to the clip plane. Like 45 degrees in the XY view, and then 45 degrees in the ZY view (not sure if I got those windows right). So far clipping the edges of

certain brush work looks good, but you can only do it on brush that are perrpendicular to the view panes. Well, perfect example; make an 8 sided brush, then clip it's bottom edge all the way around, at 45 degree angles. I can only do 4 of the 8 sides because the other 4 aren't perpendicular to the view panes. Down, Left and Right. Could the third point help with this?

[SneaksieDave]

What Orb said. It makes it so you can have a cut which doesn't necessarily line up on any particular axis. At least I think that's how to word it...

 

See attached pic. That's from DoomEd though (I can't use DR's render mode with a GF4).

 

 

Edit: place three points, drag them around, you'll see how it works.

[AluminumHaste]

I see that, but this is what I would like to do:

 

 

Now clip the last four edges the same as the first four.

[OrbWeaver]

Assuming you want an octagonal cylinder with a bevel, which is what it looks like, you would probably find it easier to make it out of two brushes - an octagonal cylinder above, and the aforementioned decapitated octagonal cone underneath.

 

You can do it with 3D clip planes, but it might be difficult to get all of the points in the right place.

[AluminumHaste]

Assuming you want an octagonal cylinder with a bevel, which is what it looks like, you would probably find it easier to make it out of two brushes - an octagonal cylinder above, and the aforementioned decapitated octagonal cone underneath.

 

You can do it with 3D clip planes, but it might be difficult to get all of the points in the right place.

 

I tried the cone + octogon, but the cones edges don't ever matchup with the octogons. Is there a way to set primitives to use the grid points??

[SneaksieDave]

Now clip the last four edges the same as the first four.

Yep, it can do that. Place the two points to make the large/long cut, and then place a third point in any roughly correct position, change your orthogonal view, and move it around. You'll see the bevel you want taking shape in the 3D preview; just move it around till you get what you want.

 

Edit:

[AluminumHaste]

Yep, it can do that. Place the two points to make the large/long cut, and then place a third point in any roughly correct position, change your orthogonal view, and move it around. You'll see the bevel you want taking shape in the 3D preview; just move it around till you get what you want.

 

Edit:

 

I tried that, but I couldn't get the egdes to meet up, which will be important if I ever have to scale the thing.

 

PS in order to save time, can you save that map and post it here please

[SneaksieDave]

Not sure if that'll really help, because the cut is already made (so you won't see the vertices). But I'll paste the whole map anyway (it's only 2kb).

 

Version 2
// entity 0
{
"classname" "worldspawn"
// primitive 0
{
brushDef3
{
 ( 0 0 -1 0 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0 0 1 -256 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0 -1 0 -64 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 1 0 0 -128 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0 1 0 -192 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( -1 0 0 -128 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( -0.7071067691 0.7071067691 0 -181.0193328857 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0.7071067691 0.7071067691 0 -181.0193328857 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0.7071067691 -0.7071067691 0 -90.5096664429 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( -0.7071067691 -0.7071067691 0 -90.5096664429 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0.7071067691 0 -0.7071067691 -67.8822479248 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( -0.7071067691 0 -0.7071067691 -67.8822479248 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0 0.7071067691 -0.7071067691 -113.1370849609 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( 0 -0.7071067691 -0.7071067691 -22.6274166107 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
 ( -0.4082483053 -0.4082483053 -0.8164966106 -26.1278915405 ) ( ( 0.03125 0 0 ) ( 0 0.0078125 0 ) ) "textures/alphalabs/a_enwall20d" 0 0 0
}
}
}

 

 

More helpful though, are a couple of shots showing the exact positions of the three points, from Top and Front view:

[AluminumHaste]

Oooooo that does help.

[NeonsStyle]

One thing about using primitives (ie brush cone, hollow, subtract etc), they tend to often get mucked up in game during compilation, or create sparklies, twists etc. Its best to stay clear of using them, and build it manually with clip tool. You can do most things you need with a brush with clip. As mentioned, vertice editing of brushes is dangerous ground. Don't do it lol... Though, sometimes, on some brushes, you can get away with moving one slightly, if I absolutely have to, I save first to a new map name, then test it in game once I've done it.

 

Venus

[AluminumHaste]

One thing about using primitives (ie brush cone, hollow, subtract etc), they tend to often get mucked up in game during compilation, or create sparklies, twists etc. Its best to stay clear of using them, and build it manually with clip tool. You can do most things you need with a brush with clip. As mentioned, vertice editing of brushes is dangerous ground. Don't do it lol... Though, sometimes, on some brushes, you can get away with moving one slightly, if I absolutely have to, I save first to a new map name, then test it in game once I've done it.

 

Venus

 

That might be the problem. When I was creating the mounts for the pillars on the front of the bank, I created an 8 sided brush, then clipped it in half, then strectched it on one axis. Bad one I guess. I'll redo all the pillars and see what happens. Thanks for all the excellent advice guys.

[OrbWeaver]

Always make sure your brush vertices are aligned to the grid. Edge-editing mode helps you to do this, while scaling or stretching brushes is a good way to break grid-alignment and cause sparklies.

[bob_arctor]

Agreed on vertex and subtract/shapes etc.

 

It's a right bugger to lose a map because of bugs.

[AluminumHaste]

Agreed on vertex and subtract/shapes etc.

 

It's a right bugger to lose a map because of bugs.

 

 

Whoops, I subtract all the time.