Thief Character Re-sized, And Demo Of New Data Structure

[Domarius]

Okay I moved a few files around relating to the thief, and moved all the thief stuff out of chars.mtr, so just do a full mod update. Or check your CVS emails for details.

 

Hopefully this should be a lot simpler. Here's how it works;

• tdm_ai_thief.def contains the materials now (which have been removed from chars.mtr)
  
• Since the model in the def file is also called tdm_ai_thief, all you have to do is see that the def file is tdm_ai_thief, and you know to type testModel tdm_ai_thief to test it out. Also, you know that everything specific for the thief must be under ai/thief under the models folder.
  
• models/ai/thief contains the models, anims, and textures.
  
• His sword material (and anything else that's shared) have been left alone for now.
  

Well that's it. Also I resized the thief to match SpringHeel's chart.

 

If everyone is happy with the way things are going with the thief, I'll do all the other characters. If so, I got ascottk's permission to overwrite his builder model and elite model with my resized versions, just so we are absolutely sure the match the sizes shown in Springheel's chart. Then ascott will move in and make his edited (headless, mittenhands) models the same size as the ones I upload.

[Springheel]

I can't load the thief. I just get a black box with an arrow.

[New Horizon]

I'm just checking out now, so I'll see if I get anywhere with that Spring. Also, I noticed that there is only the right lean, no left. I was messing around in Maya a month or two ago and I think I was able to create a left lean, simply by mirroring the animation somehow. Can't remember how that worked at the moment, but might be worth looking into.

 

The Thief model did this the first time it was uploaded. I fixed it in the def file though, so unless this is an old version of the thief Def, it should have still worked.

 

Not sure I fully understand why the materials are in a def file and not in the material file, but I'm trusting that it should work anyway.

[Domarius]

I can't load the thief. I just get a black box with an arrow.

Kaaaaaaaahn!!

 

The Thief model did this the first time it was uploaded. I fixed it in the def file though, so unless this is an old version of the thief Def, it should have still worked.

What was the problem?

 

I did a full update after I uploaded everything, and when it got to tmd_ai_thief.def, it was in purple (in Tortoise CVS) and had an "R" next to it. What does that mean? It better not have messed it up for me.

[New Horizon]

What was the problem?

 

I can't remember what the problem was, but it had to do with a bunch of missing information in the tdm_thief file. To fix it, I think I had to cut and paste some info from one of the other AI's and then replace their animations with whatever we had for the Thief.

 

We should probably just replace the current player model with the Thief model at this point....because really, the Thief model needs to become part of the player.def file, rather than its own separate file.

[Domarius]

I do remember you saying that now. But why would it work on my end, and not after I upload it?

 

What I've got in the def file, is (in this order) the materials, the export settings, and then the mesh and animation definitions.

[Domarius]

Not sure I fully understand why the materials are in a def file and not in the material file, but I'm trusting that it should work anyway.

Well, my logic is this (feel free to suggest otherwise); I don't think all resources should be lumped together just because they are of the same data type. Only the stuff that can be shared, should be lumped together.

 

If someone making a map for our mod is looking for a water material to put on their pond, there's no need for them to have to sift through every single material for every character in the game. A material definition contains a direct reference to the bitmap, and in the case of some objects like the characters, that bitmap layout is designed specifically for one mesh.

 

So for objects like the Thief, there isn't a point in having the thief textures and the thief materials anywhere else but the thief folder (or in the case of the materials, in his def file, since that's the only other place they will work outside of the material folder).

 

This can go for anything really - a vase, a mushroom, etc. In this way, everything specific to one object is all in one folder, or in its def file - its self contained as much as possible. And only the things that are shared amongst objects (such as the sword) exist in some generic folder such as "materials" or "textures".

 

What do you think?

[Springheel]

If someone making a map for our mod is looking for a water material to put on their pond, there's no need for them to have to sift through every single material for every character in the game.

 

I don't understand that example...water materials aren't in the same file as character materials, so that wouldn't happen.

 

This can go for anything really - a vase, a mushroom, etc. In this way, everything specific to one object is all in one folder, or in its def file

 

This might be appropriate for characters, but not for static meshes. I'm not sure it's intuitive either--if I was looking for the thief materials because I wanted to make a skin, I would first look in the materials folder, not the def file. And if every skin for every character starts getting added to the same file, it's going to make looking for the entitydef information very tedious.

 

The Thief model did this the first time it was uploaded. I fixed it in the def file though, so unless this is an old version of the thief Def, it should have still worked.

 

Well, for starters, this def file has no entitydefinition, but even when I added one in myself I just got a bounding box with a direction arrow. I had this problem last time with the one Domarius uploaded...I think I had to use NH's version.

 

Thief model needs to become part of the player.def file, rather than its own separate file.

 

Actually, it needs both. It will be the player model but should also be available for use as a NPC thief (preferably with some alternate skins).

[New Horizon]

This might be appropriate for characters, but not for static meshes. I'm not sure it's intuitive either--if I was looking for the thief materials because I wanted to make a skin, I would first look in the materials folder, not the def file. And if every skin for every character starts getting added to the same file, it's going to make looking for the entitydef information very tedious.

 

When I was trying to figure out why the model wouldn't appear ingame, it really threw me for a loop that the def file had the material information.

 

I think it would likely confuse FM authors since it doesn't follow the standard conventions for setting up characters/ models/ etc. I agree with Spring on that one, materials should be in the materials folder. If we start mixing things around, it's just going to be more confusing than helpful.

[sparhawk]

Right. And there is a reason why materials are in the material folder and not somehwere else.

[Domarius]

And if every skin for every character starts getting added to the same file, it's going to make looking for the entitydef information very tedious.

Actually that's what I'm trying to avoid. What you're describing is chars.mtr exactly. Every skin for every character in the one file.

 

Well we could make seperate mtr files for each character, what about that?

 

if I was looking for the thief materials because I wanted to make a skin, I would first look in the materials folder, not the def file.

Okay well in that case we should also store the character bitmaps in the textures folder.

 

So we should have;

darkmod\materials\tdm_ai_thief.mtr

darkmod\textures\ai\thief\*.tga

 

What do you reckon?

 

Well, for starters, this def file has no entitydefinition, but even when I added one in myself I just got a bounding box with a direction arrow. I had this problem last time with the one Domarius uploaded...I think I had to use NH's version.

Ah I get it now - I'm only testing it with testModel, that's why I can see it. I never intended to make him a complete entity yet, we have to replace the player model with it.

You guys were using testModel to check if it was the right size, can't you just do that again?

[Springheel]

Actually that's what I'm trying to avoid. What you're describing is chars.mtr exactly. Every skin for every character in the one file.

 

Except that in that case, materials aren't mixed in with definitions.

 

It might make sense to break up the character materials into a structure like the folder structure. So there would be a ai_guards, ai_builders, ai_undead, etc. I don't think we need a separate file for every character, as that just makes the *folder* more difficult to sift through.

 

Okay well in that case we should also store the character bitmaps in the textures folder.

 

Textures for models should not go in the textures folder, as that is for brush textures. I think it makes sense to store the textures in the same folder as the md5meshes.

 

You guys were using testModel to check if it was the right size, can't you just do that again?

 

I wasn't. Does testModel work in the editor?

[Domarius]

To use test model;

Run the mod,

start any map,

type "testModel tdm_ai_thief"

to cycle through the animations, keep typing "nextanim"

 

 

If you agree that textures should go in the mesh folder they belong to, then materials should be grouped in a similar fashion, for characters at least; since character materials just point directly to a single texture each.

 

So we should have a material file for each character mesh.

tdm_ai_thief.mtr

tdm_ai_citywatch_elite.mtr

etc...

 

And the folder won't be difficult to sort through if everything is named correctly. Its just a matter of scrolling past the stuff you don't need. Same as the def files in vanilla Doom 3.

monster_demon_archville.def,

monster_flying_cacodemon.def,

monster_zombie_bernie.def

It's like using a phone book. You don't want monsters, scroll past monsters. You don't want demon monsters, scroll past monster_demon.

[Springheel]

To use test model;

Run the mod,

start any map,

type "testModel tdm_ai_thief"

 

That doesn't help me. I want to see the thief in the editor so I can check it against the other characters the way I did in the picture I sent you.

 

And the folder won't be difficult to sort through if everything is named correctly. Its just a matter of scrolling past the stuff you don't need

 

This is equally true of putting all the builder materials in the same file, except that you won't have to scroll past as many builder materials unless you're actually LOOKING for a builder material. Everyone has to scroll through the folder. Not everyone has to scroll through the file.

 

This is reminding me of a quote about how the number one way we can look efficient but not actually get anything done is to reorganize.

[Domarius]

Man, that's a surprise Spring. I expected more from you. That's a generic attack that could be used against anyone trying to re-organise anything. I'm contributing the best I can around my Uni and my day job. I am the only one putting dates on when I expect to release more work, and in the mean time I'm discussing (not arguing) how to better organise the badly structured art stuff. At least so that I can work more efficiently if not everyone else.

 

 

Sorry about the thief being a non-entity, I'll do that next.

 

Regarding re-organising; We agree to "hide away" the character textures in their own mesh folder, rather than put them in the other textures folder.

 

Well I suggest that the character materials be treated in a similar way, since they are just more of the same thing - directly referencing the textures themselves and not meant to be shared with anything else.

 

Either that, or actually put the character textures in the texture folders with all the others, by the same logic you used for materials; "If I'm looking for materials, I'd expect to find them in the material folder".

[Springheel]

Rather than debate this endlessly, let's sum up.

 

Unless there are serious concerns with the following, we're going to abide by the following:

 

 

Character-specific textures can go in the mesh folders as you suggested, so that we don't have to duplicate the same folder structure twice.

 

 

Material files will go in the materials folder.

 

For characters, we can create one file per 'group'. That means,

 

tdm_ai_builders.mtr will have the material files for the builder guard, builder priest, forger, acolyte and prelate

tdm_ai_guards.mtr will have the material files for the house guard (if we ever get him in game) pro guard, and elite guard.

tdm_ai_citywatch.mtr will have the material files for the regular and elite city watch.

 

tdm_ai_monster_undead.mtr will have the material files for zombies and the revenant.

 

tdm_ai_monsters.mtr will have elementals, spiders and the spider queen

 

The player has his own def file. The NPC thief can go in his own def file as well for the time being.

[Domarius]

That's fine, though I get the impression I don't really have a say in the matter anymore anyway.

 

Here's to hoping that next time we can reach a conclusion to a discussion on a more mature, and lighter note, and not resort to petty attacks instead of constructive critisism, especially towards someone who's making an effort to actually do something, even if they can't manage much at the moment.

[Domarius]

What we need is something documented and agreed on, the actual convention itself isn't so important.

 

I'm trying to update the wiki with this info right now.

 

Discussing standards is a worthwhile effort. I think the reason people are complaining about it recently is because it needs doing.

 

The idea is to discuss it properly and then never go back and change it, for as long as possible. So it's worth putting a little bit of effort into now, while we don't have that many files to work with yet.

[Springheel]

All the discussion about reorganization has apparently taken precendence over the original issue, which was:

 

What needs to be done so I can see the thief in the editor? Are you able to make a proper entitydefinition for it Domarius, or do I need a copy of NH's old version?

[ascottk]

Which reminds me I should put AI modeling info on there. Like weapon attachments, head attachments although my current effort with the city watch elite isn't going well, and whatever else I did in order to do this stuff. I should keep a journal like everyone else.

[Domarius]

What needs to be done so I can see the thief in the editor? Are you able to make a proper entitydefinition for it Domarius, or do I need a copy of NH's old version?

 

Sorry about the thief being a non-entity, I'll do that next.

It's coming. I'm doing it right now actually.

[Domarius]

Well, I can't work out how to place a darkmod entity in the map inthe Doom 3 editor. When I rightclick, there is a darkmod category, and it's got like 5 things in it, none of them are characters. I CAN actually select the thief in the entity browser on the left, so that's something. Don't know how to create it in the map though, so I can't fully confirm for you if it works 100%

[sparhawk]

It might help if you would stay up to date with the mod. I removed that darkmod entity def already almost a week ago.

[Domarius]

If you mean I haven't updated from CVS - the update completed just a few hours ago. What might help is if you were able to tell me where I could find our AI in the right click menu in Doom edit.

 

@Spring - I updated the thief def. Moved his materials to a seperate material file, and hopefully he's an entity now, but I can't test that, as I said before

[sparhawk]

Why not?