--mz3dmaxmodels-- The 3ms Topic!

[Mz3D]

don't pay too much attention to the stupid title i invented.. i'm tired, it's late here..! (02:35 a.m. - Rome, Italy)

 

ooh! finally i can enter the real forums hah ah...

 

Let's get to work! First problem.. the oil lamp model i did has too many polygons, i tried to reduce as much as i could their number and to delete some parts but it still remains a model of 7000 polys.. (it was of 42000 polys before..) anyone know some tip to reduce sensibly the number of polys?

 

The general problem we should talk about is the modeling of round objects. A round object, as anyone knows here, in computer graphics appears round but is made of thousands of straight segments. So my general question is: how can i build round models without using thousands polys? which are the techniques to do this? I want to avoid what happened with the round stool model... it's named "round" but it has 7 VISIBLE sides. Are there techniques to make a segmented model appear round??

 

Changing subject, i started learning Dromed! it's great! i liked very much, it's so easy to use! i think i'll make a thief2 FM in a near future.

[Springheel]

Yes, 7000 is a little high. That's actually significantly higher than our most complex AI models.

 

There is a smoothing feature that will allow you to simulate roundness, but I'll let people who know more about modelling help you with that one. Now that you have access to the modelling forums, you might want to take a look at our online model webpage, where we keep track of our completed models. It needs to be updated at the moment, but it will give you plenty of examples of the style of models we're making.

 

http://www.tjoff.com/jens/darkmod/gallery/

[Mz3D]

Already visited! great work..

[Springheel]

Don't know of this will help you, as you aren't using lightwave, but here was a thread I had on the same issue a while back:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...p;hl=chamberpot

[SneaksieDave]

As I was getting at in my other post in your intro thread (did anyone see it? ), it's usually okay to square off rounded sides to some extent when a good normalmap can simulate roundness, or as I found is even easier, using an ASE so you get smoothing automatically. With my first not-overly-basic modelling attempt here,

I like to think that's plenty round enough, and only 500 polys for something rounded in multiple dimensions.

[sparhawk]

If you do a sphere, or other round objects, the circumference should be sufficiently round with about 7-8 vertices per edge at maximum.

[PinkDot]

The amount of sides for your round model depends mostly on its size. For metal bars or hanging rope 3 or 4 is enough, cause it's smoothed anyway. For common size models (like bottles, buckets) I would use 7-9, but for bigger (like well, big bell, etc. ) you can use even more. You have to use your discrection - if its profile is simple you can go higer with the amount of sides but if it's complicated, be cautious, cause it will multiply the polycount and low poly model will become hipoly...

 

 

When thinking about the polycount take into consideration also several things more:

- is this model intended to be used outside or inside (model for outside should be less performance expensive)

- will your model be single in a scene (or view) like bell or is it common thing, which can appear plenty of them on the screen at once (like barrel)

- is it something precious, decorative (like loot models, statues) or is it common thing, which doesn't have to be eye candy. (like rubbish wooden plank)

- is shadow casting important or not (for gameplay purposes - you expect to be hidden in the shadow of any bigger furniture or just for good looking - some statues might cast nice looking shadow, which can create some atmosphere). But for optimization reasons mapper might want to turn off shadow casting of some objects - you don't have to worry about the shape of the model which doesn't need to cast shadow.Or you can consider making separate simplified shadow mesh (inside your visible one).

[Springheel]

or optimization reasons mapper might want to turn off shadow casting of some objects - you don't have to worry about the shape of the model which doesn't need to cast shadow.Or you can consider making separate simplified shadow mesh (inside your visible one).

 

I wouldn't recommend turning the shadows off. Putting noshadow into the material means the object won't cast shadows and it won't be affected by the shadows of other objects, making it look like it's actually glowing in some situations. Simplified shadow meshes are better if it needs to be optimized.

[OrbWeaver]

I wouldn't recommend turning the shadows off. Putting noshadow into the material means the object won't cast shadows and it won't be affected by the shadows of other objects, making it look like it's actually glowing in some situations. Simplified shadow meshes are better if it needs to be optimized.

 

Noshadow does not stop a material from receiving shadows, it just stops it from casting them. Noselfshadow stops the object from casting shadows on itself or receiving them from other noselfshadow objects.

 

Still, it is best not to put this into an object's material, as it removes choices from the mapper (who can decide whether to cast shadows for an individual object using the noshadows keyval).

[PinkDot]

I wouldn't recommend turning the shadows off. Putting noshadow into the material means the object won't cast shadows and it won't be affected by the shadows of other objects, making it look like it's actually glowing in some situations. Simplified shadow meshes are better if it needs to be optimized.

I was thinking about turning shadows off in editor for selected objects, not in material declaration. (I'm not sure, but I think it must be possible...)

[Mz3D]

I re-modeled the oil lamp since there was no way to decrease sensibly the polycount of the old model.

Here are two screens of the new model (hi-poly for the normal map, and low poly for the game), it's more simple, but this is the only way to keep low the polycount.

The new low poly model has 430 triangles.

[Springheel]

Yep, that still looks good. The texture is a little rough, but don't worry, I don't mind polishing up textures as long as they have a good uvmap. It's harder to get good models than good textures.

 

Are you ready to send this one to me? Now that you have access to the models forum I can give you a lot of choice about what you'd like to do next.

[Mz3D]

ok, i have to send you the hi-poly model, the low-poly model, the diffuse textures and the specular textures, right?

[Springheel]

I don't need the highpoly model, just:

 

--the lowpoly .lwo or .ase

 

--the normalmap.tga

--the diffuse.tga

--the specular.tga

[PinkDot]

I re-modeled the oil lamp since there was no way to decrease sensibly the polycount of the old model.

Mz3D - have you ever made low poly model using normal map coming from hi poly version? I can't see any detail at your last hipoly model which could make low poly one more interesting - it's just more rounded. You could fake all those details which you have removed from hi poly using normal map on low poly model - that's what normal maps were invented for. Well, you still can make some normal map with details coming from texture. (bumps, scratches etc...)

[Mz3D]

there will be 5 normal maps, since the oil lamp model is made of several pieces and 5 of them have extra detail in the hi-poly version. Ok?

[PinkDot]

It's harder to get good models than good textures. smile.gif

From my experience and observation, it's the other way. It is the texture mostly which makes model interesting and it's also more time consuming to make it. When you play - all you see are textures - models tell only how to stretch those textures in the virtual space.

 

Or in other words - there are more cases when good texture saves weak model than good model looks still good with poor texture.

[PinkDot]

there will be 5 normal maps, since the oil lamp model is made of several pieces and 5 of them have extra detail in the hi-poly version. Ok?

Well, that's not the way models for games are made. It's better to treat it as one model and unwrap the UV coordinates, so you can easily create texture for it.

I'll get some examples to illustrate it.

[Springheel]

Yep, it's got to be all one model, and one normalmap.

[Springheel]

Here's an example of using normalmaps. The image at the top is the model, just a basic, flat model. The blue image is the normal-map. The bottom image shows how the normal-map simulates 3d detail. Obviously you couldn't model all that detail in the frame and still keep a reasonable poly count, so for games you simulate it with the normalmap/bumpmap.

[PinkDot]

EDIT: Oh, I wrote it at the same time as Springheel...

 

Mz3D - here you can see some example (maybe it's not perfect but it shows the idea:)

 

Here's the high poly model (it's not the final version, but that's the only picture I have at this moment and it's enough)

 

Here's the low poly model, used in game:

 

That's normal map baked from hipoly model (UV layout showed just for this example)

 

Diffuse map:

 

There is also alpha channel coming with diffuse map - for small, but important details.

 

Some more details added to normal map (using nVidia filter for Photoshop):

 

 

And that's how low poly model looks with diffuse and normal map together:

 

So, as you can see - you can save plenty of polygons using baked normal maps from hipoly model.

 

For this mod it's convenient to use built in Doom commands: renderbump (for models) and renderbumpflat (for wall textures, etc.)

 

And wheter your models consist of one or two hundred separate elements they still can be one mesh and UV coordinates can be laid out on one square. It's better from the performance point of view to use as few textures as possible and it's easier for the artist to paint the texture.

[Springheel]

From my experience and observation, it's the other way. It is the texture mostly which makes model interesting and it's also more time consuming to make it.

 

I guess I feel that way because I know how to make textures but I can't make models.

[sparhawk]

Also always send always the high-poly models. After all, if we want to change it, or make a derived version of it, it definitely helps.

[Mz3D]

ok ok... i never worked with the normal maps before.. this is because i never worked for a game. Anyway, i just took my 3ds max book. I'm going to study normal maps. Soon you'll have an improved model, texture and a normal map.

[Springheel]

How's this coming, btw?