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Rope Arrows And Stairows


kohan69

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Firstly, I did search for related topic(s), sorry if this was asked before.

 

I had 2 questions:

 

1.) Possibility of using Rope arrows to trip NPCs.

 

2.) Possibility of using any arrow (or a special class 'Stairow' :P as a ledge to stand on. For example: a tall wooden wall, the player shoots arrows on it in a zigzag pattern, then the player perceeds to pull himself up on one arrow, leap to the next, pull himself up, etc. But arrow are obviously weak, so the player only has 3-5 seconds until it breaks.

 

edit: My topic description got cut off shrug.gif

Edited by kohan69
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1.) Possibility of using Rope arrows to trip NPCs.

No. Special case, difficult to implement, not very realistic unless the AI is running. It's also quite cheesy. (TDS oil flasks anyone?)

 

2.) Possibility of using any arrow (or a special class 'Stairow' :P as a ledge to stand on. For example: a tall wooden wall, the player shoots arrows on it in a zigzag pattern, then the player perceeds to pull himself up on one arrow, leap to the next, pull himself up, etc. But arrow are obviously weak, so the player only has 3-5 seconds until it breaks.

That strikes me as unnecessarily tedious. Rope arrows and vine arrows will provide plenty of scope to move around levels.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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No. Special case, difficult to implement, not very realistic unless the AI is running. It's also quite cheesy. (TDS oil flasks anyone?)

That strikes me as unnecessarily tedious. Rope arrows and vine arrows will provide plenty of scope to move around levels.

 

I enjoyed oil flasks in T3, but understand it's "difficult to implement, not very realistic unless the AI is running"

 

I completely forgot about vine arrow - they function as latters right?

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Basically, yes. Vine arrows in TDM will spread out to cover a wall, making it climbable in the same fashion as a ladder.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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How are you guys planning on implementing vine arrows anyway? I know this is probably already done but it would be interesting to see them act a little more like vines that grow outwards and down from the impact location rather than a green rope that hangs off the end of the arrow. Vines that stick to the wall like how the moss arrows grow moss around the impact site. Could get some pretty awesome looking growth animations going as it spreads along the surface.

 

Heck could even have them entangle ai when you hit them with it giving you 10-20 seconds to do something about them or run away before they break loose and try to smash you. Kinda reminds me about T1 where garret hands over the eye only to be similarly entangled by victoria (also happens to be my favourite FMV from all of them).

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Vines that stick to the wall like how the moss arrows grow moss around the impact site.

 

Yep.

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Heck could even have them entangle ai when you hit them with it giving you 10-20 seconds to do something about them or run away before they break loose and try to smash you. Kinda reminds me about T1 where garret hands over the eye only to be similarly entangled by victoria (also happens to be my favourite FMV from all of them).

See also: Earth mages from Thief Gold.

 

I don't believe this particular feature is planned at the moment (though apart from that, vine arrows are planned to work how you describe). Hopefully it shouldn't be too hard for an enterprising mapper (with a bit of scripting ability) to implement it themselves, though.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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While we're on the subject, how are moss arrows going to be implemented? I did a search on the subject and nothing came up. I always thought that it was kind of stupid that a guard wouldn't notice a newly grown patch of moss under his feet, especially when it was in the middle of a bank. Are there any plans to change the way they work?

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I don't know if anything is decided for sure yet, but we're thinking of adding info about locations, so that guards don't care about moss outside, but panic if it sprouts up in a bank vault. We were also debating about whether or not it should be possible for a Thief to clean it up. (if it causes a panic, then the thief probably should have a way of removing it) Even if the thief can remove moss, they probably won't be able to recycle it, to encourage them to strategically decide where to use it.

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If moss arrows start causing guards to be more alert in the one environment you're likely to need it, then it just doesn't seem worth having them...

 

Although, I never really use them anyway.

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We've had long debates on the subject on the internal boards, more than once. On the one hand are people who feel that guards not noticing moss is silly and breaks immersion, and on the other side are those who feel that if you make moss realistic, it becomes too difficult to use to be worthwhile. We've tried to strike a compromise that does the following:

 

The moss spawned is thin and slightly transparent, so it is less noticeable.

 

As Gil said, mappers can set areas to High, Average or Low security--in low security areas (like a city street or busy kitchen) guards won't even notice, but in a high security area they might treat it as suspicious.

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Or, you can shoot the moss arrow, and then clean it way with a water arrow. Seems the best compromise. If you don't then the guards notice it any time they pass that area and do a search and it will permanently raise their alert level.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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I always thought it would be cool to dump the moss arrows, or keep them for smothering guards or choking the air intakes on bots, and giving the Thief a pair of velvet slippers in which to sneak silently. No new animations really need to be added, merely have the slippers in the inventory and when the player uses them, the Thief can creep silently. The drawback, so that the Thief cannot just keep them on, is that they make the Thief slip if he walks or runs, so he has to creep with them on. Imagine running about as a kid with your socks on, you are quiet but you can also bust your ass if you run with them on linoleum or marble flooring, same idea. I have nothing against moss arrows in particular, but I did always find it annoying that guards didnt mind that an enormous moss growth suddenly sprouted in the chapel or the treasure room. Sounds like that problem is under control though.

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I don't know if anything is decided for sure yet, but we're thinking of adding info about locations, so that guards don't care about moss outside, but panic if it sprouts up in a bank vault. We were also debating about whether or not it should be possible for a Thief to clean it up.

 

 

A related question, would it be possible to make the blood stains from a fight "surface sensitive"? For example, if I stab an AI in the back on a wooden, dirt, or marble floor I can (theoretically) wipe it up or wash it with a water arrow (an idea I don't like that much myself). But what if the AI bleeds on a carpet? Is it possible to basically make the blood a stain on certain surfaces? I'm just curious, it would seem to add a dash of realism as well as another obstacle to successfully killing AIs, which should be as hard as hell anyway IMHO.

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A related question, would it be possible to make the blood stains from a fight "surface sensitive"? For example, if I stab an AI in the back on a wooden, dirt, or marble floor I can (theoretically) wipe it up or wash it with a water arrow (an idea I don't like that much myself). But what if the AI bleeds on a carpet? Is it possible to basically make the blood a stain on certain surfaces? I'm just curious, it would seem to add a dash of realism as well as another obstacle to successfully killing AIs, which should be as hard as hell anyway IMHO.

 

Well, the question we...and everyone out there need to ask themselves is....how hard does it need to be before the game becomes too frustrating to even be considered somewhat fun?

 

One of the many wonderful things about thief, is that if you 'choose' to kill...you can. Yes, we do aim to make our AI a bit more challenging to kill...but if you make them next to impossible, you're simply removing the players choice. The player should have to deal with the consequences of killing...not rules to prevent it. In my opinion, making it next to impossible to kill AI is as good as hand holding...'this is how you play...now play it'. Silly. I like your idea about blood staining certain surfaces. I would say that you could clean it up with a water arrow, like the originals, but on certain surfaces...a slight stain could remain. It might be possible to do this by using the blend function on the blood decal that gets hit by water That's not really something that would be considered 'vital' at this point though, as there are far more critical systems to think about right now.

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I always assumed that water arrows ability to magically clean up blood stains in Thief had to do with the fact that they were in fact magical crystals of water, and not a glorified liquid fire extinguisher, a la TDM. Water crystals were seen all over the place in ways suggesting that they either formed overnight in standing pools of water or made for excellent water purifiers. This latter possibility is perfectly consistent with water arrows cleaning up blood stains ("purifying" the blood).

 

I've always disliked the way T:DS handled trick arrows. In the first two games, water, fire, and gas arrows were all elemental crystals (although they could believably be treated as thin glass shells containing water, yellow phosphorous and knock-out gas respectively). The moss arrows (and vine arrows) were simply genetically engineered plants attached to wooden shafts; moss arrows were probably the brainchild of Viktoria. Rope arrows, noisemaker arrows and broadhead arrows were all technological. It was all fairly logical.

 

With T:DS, they screwed up the moss arrow. Now it was an elemental crystal that you could shoot at a guard's face to receive a comical knockout. When I first read the description of what a moss arrow would do in a preview (grow inside their mouths and down their throats, suffocating them), I thought it would be a wholly awesome, and quite gruesome way of killing guards. I thought that if you scored a hit in the lower half of their faces, they would slowly suffocate to death, vainly clawing at the expanding moss in their mouths, unable to scream, perhaps even seizuring just before death claims them. Instead, apparently, having moss growing in your lungs knocks you out Loony Toons-style. <_<

 

I would love to see moss arrows be able to kill people with a straight shot to the face and vine arrows entangle guards. It'd make a nice reminder that a thief's tools are always dangerous. As for water arrows, why not have them clean up blood stains, but require 2-3 to clean up larger stains? At the highest difficulties and securities, guards should notice water puddles and stains that haven't dried up yet.

 

Speaking of blood stains, I would love to see large blood pools from particularly violent kills in a similar manner to Clive Barker's Undying. Killing is always supposed to be a last resort for a thief, so why not portray some of those consequences? While dismemberment is by and large a distraction from the mod (although I'd love to see it in a later release), seeing pools of blood, not to mention blood trails and bloody footprints is a great way to make killing far less palatable for the player. Furthermore, proper implementation can make a violent killing a nightmare to clean up with water arrows, requiring as much as 2-3 arrows for the blood pool, and arrows only able to clear up a certain area (say, .5 m) of blood trails and footprints. Personally, anything that makes killing seem more violent and distasteful is a great way to encourage me to avoid it in the first place.

 

Let's be honest, blood (and potentially water puddles) would make a great way to have a serious replacement for T:DS' oil flasks. As long as the animations aren't too comical, guards sliding and slipping on blood (although, only on slick floors like marble and metal plating) add a dark and admittedly somewhat twisted touch to something that might otherwise seem cartoonish. It would also grant the less scrupulous players a chance to do some truly evil things (making a guard slip into a furnace or off a cliff from a pool of his own brother's blood, for example).

 

Anyways, I thought water arrows always made moss patches grow, so why would they wash them away? Wouldn't fire arrows make a better choice for that task, burning the moss away? Plus, it would bring an extra tactical level to removing moss patches; should you burn it away with a fire arrow, and risk alerting the guards with the explosion, or should you leave the patch alone and pray they don't discover it? At most, moss patch would be a low level alert, and the moss patch might allow you to sneak up to a guard to knock him out, thereby allowing you to burn out the moss patch. Properly implemented, it mostly affects ghosters negatively, but in a way that adds realism (ghosters shouldn't be leaving incriminating evidence like moss patches behind anyways).

 

Ninja edit :ph34r:: No, almost none of this stuff would be worthwhile implementing into the first release. It's my honest hope that TDM eventually outgrows its Thief roots and expands into new areas (such as new playstyles offered by characters other than nameless, mute clones of Garrett). In the long run, I'd love to see game mechanics befitting assassins, hitmen, guards, and even adventurers, but now is not the time. Now is the time for just the basics.

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