Sharpe - Bernard Cornwell

[sparhawk]

On Oddity's recommendation I bought the grail series from Bernard Cornwell and was quite excited. It was really gripping and conveyed a feeling as if Cornwell was really there as a wittness. So I bought also the Arthur saga from him, but I must say that I liked the grail quest a bit better, even though it's still agood reading. Because I like such historical novels quite a lot, I was considering to buy the sharp series as well. Or since these are so many, at least start with the first book. Now I have the problem of the order of it. According to Cornwells site, "Sharp's Eagles" was the frist book written in that series, but from the numbering it is #8 while "Sharp's Tiger", which came much later, got the number one. It is not uncommon that authors write a successfull book, and later on write prequels to it, but I wonder in which order best to read it. Should I go with the numbering as given on his site http://www.bernardcornwell.net/index2.cfm?page=1 or should I go in chronological order as they were written?

 

Also if you have other recommendations about good historical novels I'm always glad to hear it. This is already the second recommendation from Oddity that I really liked, because the series from R.R.Martin was also a really good one (though I like Cornwell even more).

[demagogue]

Is it fair to call a book on a topic like the Arthur myth "historical"?

I'm not attacking the idea, I'm just curious.

 

Most every country has its foundationaly myths which probably stretch historical reality under scrutiny. But there's always a question about how to treat such stories.

 

Is the idea here that it tries to jam the story into a historically plausible scenario?

I remember the movie First Knight doing that with the Arthur myth and, in one sense, it's kind of cool to imagine how such a story might really have some basis in the actual period, but in another sense it was sort of a downer, since it guts some of the magic of the story and makes it seem a little smaller. These are just pretty normal Joes on the utter peripherial end of the Empire.

How does this series deal with all of this?

 

As for recommendations, sticking with my theme of pushing what is "historical", I'd recommend Harry Turtledove who does a lot of alternative-history stuff, like if the South had won the US Civil War and the US breaks into fascist and socialist parts going into WWI ... or if a key technology had been invented earlier. It's fun because you get to think about history from a fresh perspective. Sometimes he mixes fantasy elements into real history too, which can be fun and thought-provoking, too, in its own way (the same historical dynamics going on; he just changes the basic variables).

 

The books come in period-specific (usually that means war-specific) series, so it depends on what period you like. I liked the alternative US history stuff (e.g., Southern Victory Series), but he's got stuff on Rome, Byzantine, WWI, WWII, etc. All the one's I've read are good fun (if you're into the alternative idea at all). Better just go through the list (at the bottom of the wiki-entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove) and find a series that looks interesting.

Edited February 10, 2007 by demagogue

[sparhawk]

Is it fair to call a book on a topic like the Arthur myth "historical"?

I'm not attacking the idea, I'm just curious.

 

That's why I said "historical novel". Of course the story itself may or may not have happened, but a good historical novel at least makes the attempt that the description and behaviour of the poeple and their environment is historical accurate. Reading that Arthur series, at least it is written in a way, that it might have happened. There is no real magic or pulling swords out of stones as in fantasy novels, but the live and motivation is depicted as it might actualy have happened.

 

I remember the movie First Knight doing that with the Arthur myth and, in one sense, it's kind of cool to imagine how such a story might really have some basis in the actual period, but in another sense it was sort of a downer, since it guts some of the magic of the story and makes it seem a little smaller. These are just pretty normal Joes on the utter peripherial end of the Empire.

 

Well, but this is how it is. All the magic is added later on. I think that is very well described in the Grail series, because at no point the book makes you believe that the grail really exists or has some real magical power, unless you want to of course. Instead it describes the superstition behind it and the political motivations to make people believe in it, so it conveyes a rather realistic picture.

 

The books come in period-specific (usually that means war-specific) series, so it depends on what period you like. I liked the alternative US history stuff (e.g., Southern Victory Series), but he's got stuff on Rome, Byzantine, WWI, WWII, etc. All the one's I've read are good fun (if you're into the alternative idea at all).

 

I like alternate histories, but usually I prefere a more medieval ones (or earlier), like these from Cornwell. I once read a ttrilogy about the vikings which was also very good, which dealt with the alternate path of the vikings invading Britain. But I'm not fixated on that, if a WWII is well written I like it as well. Don't like so much contemporary though.

 

Better just go through the list (at the bottom of the wiki-entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove) and find a series that looks interesting.

 

Thanks. I take a look at it.

[SplaTtzZ]

I've recently been reading alot of Bernard Cornwell myself. I'm about halfway through the Sharpe series of books, and they really are quite interesting, particularly if you don't know much about early 19th century Europe and warfare. Cornwell started with Sharpe's Eagles, but i'd recommend buying the books in chronological order, beginning with Sharpe's Tiger and the battle with the Tippoo Sultan. But if you wanted you could really pick up the series from any one of the books, as cornwell does a pretty good job of fluently recapping Sharpes previous exploits in each book. The series is largely aimed at detailing the exploits of Sir Arthur Wellesley, from India to the Peninsula Wars and finally culminating in the Battle of Waterloo. As such, most of the main battles, particularly in the Peninsula, are ones that the Duke of Wellington fought in or commanded. But there are also a few extra ones; like the Battle of Trafalgar that I'm reading about at the moment, in Sharpe's Trafalgar.

 

One thing that I sometimes find annoying about Cornwell's books is that the protagonists all tend to be the same across each series. Most seemed to be plagued with indecisiveness (ala Hamlet), and are constantly switching between motives and objectives. I think it is a little forgiveable in some cases, in that his characters often have to be present at a wide range of true historical events, rather than focusing on set of objectives and missing out on history. It just bugs me a little that in each Sharpe book Sharpe finds some new woman who he instantly falls in love with and vows to live with her happily ever after and never be a soldier again, but then something happens and it all goes to hell, que next book. It reminds me of James Bond. Still, Cornwell at least does write well and the history in his books is always interesting, and they're are a far cry above the Wheel of Time series thats for sure.

 

I'd highly recommend the Sharpe series, as well as Cornwell's latest books: The Last Kingdom, The Pale Horseman and the Lords of the North. I found these alot more enjoyable than the Warlord Chronicles about King Arthur, and more on par with the Harlequin series. Instead of being about Britons fighting Saxons etc. its about the Angles and Saxons fighting against the Invasion of the Danes, and the exploits of Kind Aelfred the Great, the main king responsible for uniting a large swaithe of Britain under Angle-Saxon rule.

 

On the topic of Historical Novels; I've always enjoyed reading the ones where you can appreciate that the authors have done alot of work towards ensuring historical accuracy, but have also tried to make the story as interesting as possible. I think Cornwell pulls this off admirably with most of his novels, and the only other author I've read that also achieves this is Colleen McCoullough with the Masters of Rome series.

 

I've also found alternate history novels to be very interesting too. I shall have to read some of Turtledove's work as I've seen them at book stores but wasn't sure if they were any good or not. On the same topic, a whle bakc Interplay and Black Isle released an RPG game called Lionheart that played around a bit with the history of the crusades and renaissance. You got to meet Shakespeare and DaVinci and Torquemada; but it had this decided fantasy feel with demons and angels and magic. It was basically a flop and the companies ended up going broke without really even finishing it; but I always thought the premise was sound and would make an interesting theme for a game.

Edited February 10, 2007 by SplaTtzZ

[sparhawk]

Europe and warfare. Cornwell started with Sharpe's Eagles, but i'd recommend buying the books in chronological order, beginning with Sharpe's Tiger and the battle with the Tippoo Sultan.

 

So with chronological order you mean, the numbering on that page, and not chronological to the dates they were written?

 

But if you wanted you could really pick up the series from any one of the books, as cornwell does a pretty good job of fluently recapping Sharpes previous exploits in each book.

 

Yeah, but I rather want to start with the first. And if I don't like it it doesn't really matter. In most books there are recaps so you know a little bit of what happened, but I always found them to be wanting.

 

The series is largely aimed at detailing the exploits of Sir Arthur Wellesley, from India to the Peninsula Wars and finally culminating in the Battle of Waterloo.

 

That's why I'm not 100% sure on it. Normally I prefere more medieval, so I thought I will give it a try and see if it is ok. What I also like is a setting around the time Sherlock Holmes plays, I think that would be then 18xx, so this would be around the same time.

 

Still, Cornwell at least does write well and the history in his books is always interesting, and they're are a far cry above the Wheel of Time series thats for sure.

 

I liked Wheel of Time, but it is definitely a bit stereotypical with the characters. Especially the women. Still I hope that I sometime will see the end of it. Would be a shame if it just hangs.

 

I'd highly recommend the Sharpe series, as well as Cornwell's latest books: The Last Kingdom, The Pale Horseman and the Lords of the North.

 

These ones I already put on order. I just was a bit undecided about the Sharpe series, because it has so many volumes. I would hate to invest money in yet antoerh halffinished series that doesn't come to an end because the author looses track of what he writes (like WOT currently does).

 

On the topic of Historical Novels; I've always enjoyed reading the ones where you can appreciate that the authors have done alot of work towards ensuring historical accuracy, but have also tried to make the story as interesting as possible. I think Cornwell pulls this off admirably with most of his novels, and the only other author I've read that also achieves this is Colleen McCoullough with the Masters of Rome series.

 

Definitely. That's why I got hooked. I got to check out that McCoullough to see if this is also something for me.

 

I've also found alternate history novels to be very interesting too.

 

What I also liked was "The medicus" (not sure if this is also the english title) and another one about a femal christian pope, which is supposed to really have happened but I forgot the name of the book.

[SplaTtzZ]

Colleen McCollough's books are all about the fall of Republican Rome, and the rise of the Roman Empire. They're very long and some people might find them tedious books, but I enjoyed them alot and found them very interesting; and I was happily surprised at the level of historical accuracy and detail in each book (you can even obtain a Bibliography for them) and the author, who is fairly famous in Australia, was awarded an honoury degree from a prominent university for her work. The books do have quite a steep learning curve, and i found myself constantly referring to the massive appendix; but once i got going i thoroughly enjoyed them.

 

On the subject of Sharpe; I particularly liked the depiction and descriptiveness of the battles in the Harlequin series, and even though the Sharpe series is set in another era, they still have the same vivid action sequences. It's hard to say what book would be the best to begin at, I found Sharpe's Eagle, about the battle of Talavera and the first Sharpe novel that Cornwell wrote; to be as good as the one i started reading at, Sharpe's Fortress, which was a prequel written later on. I'd say you're best to start at either Sharpe's Triumph or Fortress, or Sharpe's Tiger, though I myself have yet to read that one.

Edited February 10, 2007 by SplaTtzZ

[oDDity]

It's probably best to go with chronological order of the character, rather than the order they were written in. He started writing them in the early 80's but, then worte more books in the late 90's which tell about Sharpe's early military career.

I've read 4, but I quit after that. I noticed them getting very repetitive.

In each book, he basically takes an account of a real historical battle, and weaves a plot concerning the adventures of Sharpe arouind it, usually giving Sharpe the heroic roles of one or more real life historic figures.

However, he seems to have a very basic list of what he considers essential items for each novel.

1 - pretty girl, always unavailable for some reason at the start of the book, who always falls for Sharpe, even though he's a filthy flea and lice-ridden, unshaved nobody in near rags who hasn't had a bath in 6 months, then he shags her halfway though, and then loses her again for one reason or another by the end.

2) Cardboard cutout villain, who will be your protagonist for the proceedings, most remind me of Dick Dastardly, and no redeeming features, you follow him doing his dastardly deeds throughout the novel, and then are supposed to get satisfaction when he gets his comeuppance at the end, which he always does, invariably at the end of Sharpe's blade.

3)One or more recklessly hopeless heroic deeds of bravery with a 99 in 100 chance of being killed for Shape to perform.

4) plenty of accounts of the real horrors of war, murdered families, where the children have been raped first etc, but it's gets a little old after you've read a detail account of the firing of a cannon and how it's taken someone's head off for the hundredth time.

It's a formula that's ok for a few books, but there are just too many of the Sharpe books to be bothered with. I really was getting bored by the fourth one, after that is statrd t fee a lot like what it is - a formula, and a pretty simple one.

Really, what he should have done is write these as trilogies, following one character in each, rather than trying to make one character stretch through 15 or so books.

Plus, you have to realise that when the books started to be made i to TV shows from the early 90's onwards. he started writing the books with a TV show plot and format in mind, rather than just a book.

If you're interest lies in the historic battles, then there are many better non-fiction books to read to get just that.

[sparhawk]

First and foremost I'm interested in a good reading. I suspected as much concerning th TV shows. Some books from King are quite good, but I read several of him which basically screemed "I'm a movie template". Concerning the repetitiveness, I suspected as much. That's why I was a bit taken aback when I learned that it has so many volumes. I thought that it either would stretch really thin if it's one continous story, or is just a container to place the actual independent stories in.

[Crispy]

On the topic of mostly-historical novels, I quite enjoyed the Bridei Chronicles by Juliet Marillier (The Dark Mirror, Blade of Fortriu, The Well of Shades). There's a little bit of "magic", but it's very much in keeping with the theme of the books. There are no fireballs or anything; just a bunch of druidic rituals and lot of god-fearing. So I didn't find that it got in the way.