Template Discussion

[Domarius]

Okay, here we can discuss all the points clearly and define wether or not templates are a waste of time, and the best way to create them.

 

Benefits of even having templates - Templates can allow people who are not so good at character modelling, to make decent models that still fit our theme. For those who can't model a character from scratch, but know enough to stictch peices together, these people will be able to model characters.

 

Also, it can make the job of proficient modellers, much quicker. We will get more variety. With the arms and legs already provided seperately, Proficient modellers just have to create new shirts, or boots, or gowns, etc, and they can make this new peice of clothing available as a seperate file for people to create new varieties of characters.

 

And we can make the templates available as part of the mod so that Thief fan mission creators will also benefit in the same way.

 

Good character modellers seem to be hard to come by. We have only ever had one at a time. ascottk has been modeling new characters, but he is still only one person.

Also, he has shown a great proficiency for the technical side of modelling (eg. head swapping, rigging to work with Doom 3 physics, and lots of other technical issues), so if the need arises for those things again, we could still have other modellers working on models in the mean time.

 

oDDity's old nude templates that were created at the start of the mod - topology doesn't match the style he adopted for the final models, and they are hi-res meshes, which makes it even more difficult to change. It would be more work than creating from scratch.

 

oDDity's current final models - they are final state, and so the geometry doesn't show the basic form, the mesh topology is specific to the armour or clothing that they have, and the only "body" parts are hands and faces (not even the head is there, when they're wearing a hat or helmet). This means everything but hands and faces would be deleted, and so again, we'd be creating from scratch.

 

squawks templates - already low poly, already minimum human form (skin tight clothing), already segmented for easy interchanging of parts (which equates to changing clothing easily).

 

Nice screenies & all but they're worthless if we can't get our hands on the actual models. We would have had them already if they didn't go through you first.

When squawks models were submitted, all the feedback I saw was that they were so different from oDDity's style, that they were unuseable.

 

I offered to change them, no one else did.

 

You are the first to say they are useable.

[New Horizon]

oDDity's current final models - they are final state, and so the geometry doesn't show the basic form, the mesh topology is specific to the armour or clothing that they have, and the only "body" parts are hands and faces (not even the head is there, when they're wearing a hat or helmet). This means everything but hands and faces would be deleted, and so again, we'd be creating from scratch.

 

I don't think you fully understand the type of templates we need for the mod Dom, or what can be achieved with oDD's current models.

 

1. We're chopping the heads off of our models anyway, that's no big deal.

 

It's not necessary to completely obliterate the model down to the hands and face...that's silly. The models can be easily broken down to more simple forms and made to look like various characters.

 

(copied from other thread)

I got tired of having my suggestion that oDD's models could have been used as templates shot down. So, here is twenty five minutes work to turn the city watch model into something that might resemble a humble townsfolk. I did this awhile ago, just to see how hard it really was.

 

 

EASY! A few final tweaks, some alternate skins and it's ready to go.

 

What was so difficult about this? Nothing. Why over complicate matters by starting from scratch to make completely new templates, and then only to have to tweak them to look like what we already have? I took a lot of guff about this, knowing full well that it was relatively easy to do after having tried it.

 

This is in the very spirit of the toolset. Taking what already exists, and modifying it. It's quick, it's relatively easy and it yields results that look as if the models were made by the same artist. Add to that...swapping heads, def attachments and multiple skins...we have ALL the models we need already. That's why I'm so extremely frustrated by all of this extra work. It's not necessary at all.

 

I'll tweak a few more things on this guy, try to make a new skin for him...and then I'll post the results.

 

As for nobody offering to tweak Squawks models...well, there was no need to spend time on them. We have pretty much everything we need already.

[sparhawk]

When squawks models were submitted, all the feedback I saw was that they were so different from oDDity's style, that they were unuseable.

 

As far as I remember she showed us two models, where only one we said that it is only of limited use because it was some monster or such. Apart frmo that we have only seen screenshots after spending how many months of waiting? I can look up when Squawks appeared here, and I'm pretty sure that it is easily more then four months now and we still have not got one single model in the game. So how much is the total time if this is already supposed to be a "faster" process?

[Domarius]

Even if I may not be the best person to talk about the resulting quality, I can still see the effeciency of a process, and so far it looks close to be zero. Just to clarify this. I don't count screenshots as any actual productive work, because in the end, we can't use screenshots for anything except to make pretty pictures from it. It's good to show them for feedback and such, but as long as it is not on the server, the assets, whatever it may be is, is non-existant as far as the mod is concerned. And this does not only relate to models but to maps and textures as well. Anything that doesn't exist on teh server or at least FTP does not exist as far as releasabillity is concerned.

Well the point of a set of templates is to create a foundation for assets to be created from, so yes, you don't actually see any new assets untill someone takes the template and actually makes a character.

 

I can look up when Squawks appeared here, and I'm pretty sure that it is easily more then four months now and we still have not got one single model in the game. So how much is the total time if this is already supposed to be a "faster" process?

What you're complaining about is squawks lack of time to devote to the mod, not the process.

 

 

@New Horizon - okay, that looks very good, but how long ago is "a while ago"? Why did you do it and not post it then?? That's all it would have taken. I daresay it would have been easier than all this discussion - which I apologise for you having to go through. It might have inspired me to have another go at oDD's models at the very least.

 

Provided we can make the skinny townspeople, semi-nude pagans, peasants, and zombies from oDDity's existing models (which are mostly burly guards with armour and robes...); then I conceed, editing squawks models isn't nessecary.

 

I wish this had have happened earlier, but the only regret is that I might've held back the team - otherwise, it was my mistake to make and I don't care. Though I haven't been contributing much anyway because of my lack of time at the moment cause of work, so its not like a huge amount of time was wasted.

[sparhawk]

Well the point of a set of templates is to create a foundation for assets to be created from, so yes, you don't actually see any new assets untill someone takes the template and actually makes a character.

 

Which is quite hypothetical at the moment. I'm not averse to a template idea, but of course such templates only make sense if they are delivered in due time. It's kind of pointless if the one person, who is supposed to create the templates holds back because she is to afraid to post, while the other person apparently has no time anyway to do anything substantial. I know that this is a free mod, and that not everbody has the same amount to spend. But then this should be acknowledged even to yourself. It's hardly convincing when the argument about saving time is brought forward, while in the same time others have started to create models from scratch, without using templates, and already not only finishing the models, but also animated them and brought them into a usable game-state.

 

What you're complaining about is squawks lack of time to devote to the mod, not the process.

 

That's part of it, yes. While I don't have a problem with limited time, I do have a problem if that limted time is wasted for supposed timesaving. If squawks would have spent her time modelling some characters, we would already have at least two additional AIs finished by now. So now we have some templates, that nobdoy ever has seen, except on screenshots, we have additional screenshots of her first model and the whore, and now she quits.

 

@New Horizon - okay, that looks very good, but how long ago is "a while ago"?

 

What does it matter how long ago he did this? The important point is that it took him about 25 minutes in total to come to such a model, while with the supposed timesaving of templates we still don't have anything usable since months. And if an inexperienced modeller needs half an hour to do something usable, then the quesiton is valid how much actual time the templates will save. It would mean that somebody like NH can do the same in less then 25 minutes, which I doubt.

 

Though I haven't been contributing much anyway because of my lack of time at the moment cause of work, so its not like a huge amount of time was wasted.

 

That's not entirely true, because by now we could have had at least the two models from Squawks while now we have nothing. And since we are quite short on good modellers anyway, this is a problem for the mod. Not that it really helps now to cry over the spilled milk.

[Domarius]

What does it matter how long ago he did this?

Because the debate could have ended a lot sooner if he posted it when he made it, that's why.

 

That's not entirely true, because by now we could have had at least the two models from Squawks while now we have nothing. And since we are quite short on good modellers anyway, this is a problem for the mod. Not that it really helps now to cry over the spilled milk.

She honestly didn't spend a lot of time on the templates anyway, I don't think she would have finished the barmaid even if she didn't do them. You can see the difference in time spent in the level of detail of the barmaid pics vs the "template" stuff. Look at the barmaid pics - she's got a head, and an unfinished torso. The finished product was still a ways off.

[sparhawk]

Because the debate could have ended a lot sooner if he posted it when he made it, that's why.

 

Well he didn't and the discussion is stil ongoing.

 

She honestly didn't spend a lot of time on the templates anyway, I don't think she would have finished the barmaid even if she didn't do them. You can see the difference in time spent in the level of detail of the barmaid pics vs the "template" stuff. Look at the barmaid pics - she's got a head, and an unfinished torso. The finished product was still a ways off.

 

Doesn't really matter anymore, anyway.

[Domarius]

Uh, hello? The discussion about the templates ended with my post to NH up there - what is happening now is that I'm re-explaining that post to you.

 

Hopefully some people are finding it amusing in a "Laurel and Hardy" type way, cause it doesn't prove much else. We are just macho postering now, so I'm stopping replying to you about it.

[New Horizon]

Because the debate could have ended a lot sooner if he posted it when he made it, that's why.

 

I had explained that it was just as easy, if not easier to use the existing models. You argued against it, I'm assuming now, without even trying it for yourself.

 

To be quite honest, it wasn't exactly a new concept that needed to be proven. FM authors in the Thief community have used this very same process for years. They would take the original models, reskin...remodel..and reuse. We're taking it a step further for them by stripping down the existing models ever so slightly. That's all this ever needed to be, not a completely new side project, yet it was made overly complicated.

 

You said you were experienced in modeling, so I assumed you knew better...initially. I only worked that model up around 2 weeks ago...and I hadn't been posting quite as much lately, due to some personal issues I'm dealing with. That being said, this wasn't a priority for me to deal with at the time....but I'm making it a priority now, for better or worse.

 

Sadly, the debate could have ended even sooner than me posting a screenshot, it could have never started...had the existing models been used, as was requested from the very beginning. It was a reasonable request.

 

I'm going to close this particular thread for now...there is a whole lot of negativity going down in it.