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Lightgem Again


sparhawk

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While that is true, and would work, it's unessecary. A cube uses 12 polys. Just model a 2 poly square (one face of a cube) in a 3D editor and export it.

 

When you model a perfect, 1 dimensional square in a 3D editor, it requires 2 polys, since all polygons must be triangles. The square is cut down the diagonal, making 2 polys.

Edited by Domarius
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New Horizon, there is no confusion, 'cause this idea was never meant to replicated T3's light gem.  It is a completely new idea.

 

 

It would definately use fewer polys, but if the compass is going to move up and down in addition to around it, the illusion will be lost.  The design was made to fit snugly inside of the compass ring.

 

 

 

This can still be done with the true 3D gem.  :)

I screwed up your post Domarius....LOL I keep hitting the bloody "edit" button instead of "Quote". ARgh. Anyway.

 

 

This idea has the advantage of;

[*]Using much much less polys - the sphere takes up the most, and needs a decent amount to actually look round.

It would definately use fewer polys, but if the compass is going to move up and down in addition to around it, the illusion will be lost. The design was made to fit snugly inside of the compass ring.

 

[*]Looks better - the 2D gem can be pre-rendered with all sorts of cool radiosity effects to really make it look like a beautiful translucent gem, with reflections inside it, etc.

 

This can still be done with the true 3D gem. :)

 

[*]Easier to program - the gem is just a sequence of pictures, just by changing the texture on the 2 poly square.

 

The gem is still just a sequence of pictures on the 3D model...the only difference is that it is skinned on the model and therefore you don't have to worry about getting a screenshot of the gem at a specific angle. It will also allow us to tweak the angle of the gem with little effort. It's not that it has to be like the T3 gem, but in order for it to do what it was intended to do, it needs to be a 3D gem. :)

 

Also a 2D gem would have a fixed perspective when the compass tilts up and down. If it's not 3D this will look really bad as the perspective of the gem has to be able to change with the compass ring since it is supposed to be snug inside of it.

 

With a fixed perspective, we're not as flexible. If the compass ring is to tilt upwards with the 2D gem we would get this.

gemmodel4.jpg

 

Not trying to be difficult on this, but I'm just saying I'm familiar with the system from pulling T3 apart. Unless we plan on redesigning the gem into a more rectangular T 1,2,3 style gem, the perspective isn't going to work. :(

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Surely a 3D model would be best?

:) It would. The gem is a fixed part of the compass ring. While it doesn't spin left and right...it does tilt up and down with the compass ring. It's the difference between changing a few numbers to alter the perspective of the gem and creating 16 totally new textures every time we have to alter the perspective of the gem. Trust me guys. ;)

 

I can understand wanting to save some polys, but the lightgem only appears once in the hud...the gem shouldn't impact too badly.

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I can understand wanting to save some polys, but the lightgem only appears once in the hud...the gem shouldn't impact too badly.

If we can rotate the compass aorund the gem, there is no need for the gem being a real object. And it certainly doesn't move.

Gerhard

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Bare with me on this. This isn't some idea I just came up with. The illusion WON'T be destroyed when the compass points move (as I thought I illustrated). It's a trick used in many commercial 3D games.

 

No, the 2D gem doesn't move. It doesn't need to, because it's a perfectly round sphere. You can't tell which way its facing. Look at my previous example pic. BECAUSE you can't tell which way a marble is facing, is why you can use a 2D pic for it.

 

You don't need to render new pictures for every angle you see it on, because a perfect sphere never looks different, no matter what angle you view it on.

The only way it looks different is if you change the light source, which isn't nessecary for a HUD item.

 

 

-But you are right, there is no real difference with a true 3D one and the 2D one from a programming perspective, since both are simply changing textures on a mesh in real time.

-And the poly count doesn't really matter I suppose, since there is only one of them and not lots of them all over the screen (like in-game objects such as coin stacks).

-But the 2D one has the possibility of being pre-rendered much nicer looking, and perfectly round without huge amounts of polys. That is generally the entire reason for employing this trick. If I could find some screen shots, I could show you what I mean.

 

Okay, it's not a decent example, but maybe it gets the gist across.

Look at the tyres on the Karts. (They are all the same tire object). Notice how they have managed to get treads on the tires, shading, rims etc. all which would take up lots of polys.

The fact is, that they only rendered 1 animation of the tire revolving on the Y axis (ie. rotating as if sitting on a microwave plate while it turns) and stuck this on a 2 poly square.

They did not render frames for any other angles (except 2 more for the z axis, so the tire can look like it's spinning) because the fact is, that the tire will ALWAYS look like one of those frames from the animation of the Y axis revolving, no matter what angle you look at it from, high, low, diagonal, side, etc. because of the way the tire is shaped. It is a perfect circle.

 

In the case of a perfect sphere, it looks the same from ALL angles, something they exploited in Mario 64 with the king ba-bomb - his body is a 2D image of a pre-rendered sphere with a highlight on it - that way, he is perfectly round (no polygonal edges), it only takes up 2 polys instead of hundreds, and his eyes, arms and legs rotate around that image as he turns, as if it was a perfect sphere, completing the illusion.

Much like what I'm suggesting for the light gem.

 

All I'm saying is that it's possible to exploit this trick to make a much more beautiful, glass-marble type looking gem, like the one that was first posted.

post-5-1102344956.jpg

Edited by Domarius
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we could dicus these sorts of things in real time, rather than like this - it's taken all these posts and the best part of a day to sort this out, which could have been sorted in 10 minutes real time, I suspect.  ;)

Message board really aren't a very convienient way to tak, it's really just a succession of one sided arguments.

That's what the IRC channel is there for. ;) Details here: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showtopic=450

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All I'm saying is that it's possible to exploit this trick to make a much more beautiful, glass-marble type looking gem, like the one that was first posted.

I see where you're coming from on the matter of a perfect sphere, but our gem isn't a perfect sphere. It's more flattened.

 

A perfect sphere would probably be easier to work with, but wouldn't look right in the current compass casing.

 

 

gemmodel6.jpg

 

 

In its current form we would get issues like this if it wasn't 3D.

gemmodel7.jpg

 

When we should have this. :)

The 3D model should look as if it is held in place by the compass casing.

gemmodel5.jpg

 

Come to think of it. It might be really nice to have it spin with case too. We can still achieve a nice glassy gem effect like this and it would give a nice effect if it all spun together.

 

We should really set aside time to talk about this in IRC. If the number of polys can be minimized in the models even better, but I honestly think this is the best way to go. *pushes away from the table* I'm exhausted. :lol: I was up until 3am playing around with this. :) Anyway, that's the last I'll say on the issue, my two cents have been thoroughly laundered. ;)

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Your pictures above, NH, nicely illustrate my problem with the tilting compass. At that angle (which would be when the character looked slightly upwards) the compass is unuseable, and the gem is barely readable either.

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Your pictures above, NH, nicely illustrate my problem with the tilting compass. At that angle (which would be when the character looked slightly upwards) the compass is unuseable, and the gem is barely readable either.

True, but while actually playing it wouldn't be in that position for very long. :) Also, this is an unskinned model. If the gem were skinned it would definately show up better than it is here.

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If you look at my example drawing picture, you can see that the tilting isn't a problem if it is a perfect sphere, placed perfectly in the center of the compass points, and isn't so huge that it obscures the furthest point at most angles.

 

In its current form we would get issues like this if it wasn't 3D.
That picture isn't correct for the example I posted at all. If the gem is dead center, the whole thing will look the same no matter what angle the compass points are on. Look at my example drawing.
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  • 2 weeks later...

I see no need for a tilting compass (I see no need for a compass period, but that's another story)

If we absolutely HAVE to have one, then let's have a nice pre-rendered non-tilting one, and spend our time on more important and relevant matters.

 

edit: There's no need to combine the lightgem and compass anyway. Give players the choice of what they want on their HUD. A separate compass and gem sovles the problem. I thought we were determined to copy everything from Thief totally verbatim anyway, we may as well steal the HUD while we're at it :/

Edited by oDDity

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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I see no need for a tilting compass (I see no need for a compass period, but that's another story)

If we absolutely HAVE to have one, then let's have a nice pre-rendered non-tilting one, and spend our time on more important and relevant matters.

I already explained several times that there IS some need for a tilting compass, or the compass should be a seperate object. I don't care one way or the other as long as we have one.

Gerhard

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Well, I still vote for no tilting. There is no way to have a light-gem compass combination where you can see both the compass AND the lightgem at all angles while it is tilting. Having the compass tell you what angle you are looking at is next to pointless, IMO. Sure, with graphics like T1/2 it might have been useful, but did anyone miss it in T3? Or D3? Or any other FPS? It simply isn't necessary, and certainly isn't worth screwing up our lightgem HUD, which could be made MUCH more simply.

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I hope no one's forgotten my idea of using an ambient sound to represent how much light the player is in. The more light you're in the louder it gets (or pitch increases). THis won't be as bad as you think since the player should be spending little time in bright light anyway, so the sound will mostly be very quiet . And also, it only has to play when the player is moving, when you're still the light sound stops.

We're going to at least test this idea in the game to see i it works, right?

You sound guys come up with a sound effect for this please. It'll have to be something distict from other sounds, and subtle.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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I remember the discussion, but I don't remember it getting much support. :) I know I certainly wouldn't care for it. I can choose to only glance at the lightgem once in a while, but a sound is much harder to ignore.

 

Atti: This isn't really your fault, because you have to make a lightgem like that in order for it to tilt. But now the problem is, if it tilts even slightly, you can no longer see whether you are pointing north or not because the gem is too big.

 

Designing a tilting light gem is a pain in the ass, and for a very limited payoff, IMO.

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dear TEAM

 

Although the design is great it s inspiring...Please please please do not consider of using tilting compass + lightgem combo...

 

Our thief does need only lightgem..IT s the purist thing in Thief we should keep it.

 

If you guys want a compass (which i never used it in any game) Just make it little smaller and give the gamer ability to remove it if he wants to...

 

My screen in thief 1 or 2 was clear and pure..All those turning rotating stuff makes the Screen full..And if a screen full you look the UI screen instead of Level itself.. Please remember the Deus ex 2 disaster.. THat UI screen made me uninstalled the game after waiting it for so long. .

 

 

 

LET THE LIGHTGEM be alone over there...

 

 

BEST

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