Alternate Light Gem

[oDDity]

Exactly. People are lazy, they just lap up whatever they're fed. The entire game industry fanbase are zombies.

Like giving medicine to a dog, you have to hide it inside a treat.

I have developed an extremely low opinion of gamers, which is tough, since it already start out pretty low.

What gamers basically what to do is completely waste their time on puerile, mindless, repetitive and comfortable tasks, that are of no merit or consequence to anything.

[OrbWeaver]

What gamers basically what to do is completely waste their time on puerile, mindless, repetitive and comfortable tasks, that are of no merit or consequence to anything.

 

Just like the vast majority of non-gamers, then.

[oDDity]

Well didn't even see the point in mentioning the low opinion I have of TV audiences, that's goes without saying.

I don't even know any adults who watch TV any more, it seems to have become the domain of children.

[sparhawk]

Small wonder. Since I have kids, I watch TV also frequently. But the only program that you can watch is the kids prorams, because everything else is so much crap now. I don't know, maybe it was equally bad, when I was a kid, but didn't realize then. But I'm so opposed to watching TV nowadays, that I don't even watch movies I like to see anymore, because they are handicapped with constant commercial breaks. So I usually watch movies or shows where I don't care anyway, and everything else I either buy on DVD or download. I wanted to see "Scorpion King" which was aired a few weeks ago on TV, but I also refused to watch it because of this. After it was finished, I downloaded it from and watched it without breaks.

[oDDity]

Yeah, I just get everything online now. Movies, the single TV show I currently watch (Peep Show)

Most Tv shows are already up on torrents or newsgroups a few hours after they've been broadcast.

I only have a TV at all through habit, it just seems weird not having one at all, but most weeks I literally don't watch it at all.

[OrbWeaver]

I don't even own a TV, it's not worth the license fee to watch that crap. Any TV shows I want I can get on DVD through online rental services, which has the advantage of better quality and no downloading (or lawsuits if you're unlucky).

[oDDity]

I'd imagine German TV is mostly imported from the UK and US anyway. I've literally never seen a German language TV show, but I guess it's pretty much the same reality TV crap we get over here these days, big brother, TV chefs, and 2 cockney builders knocking nails into plywood.

[sparhawk]

Some of the shows I like I can't get because they are not available here (like Red Dwarf). If I were alone, I also wouldn't need a TV anymore. When I was still living alone, I had it switched on all day, but I barely watched. It just run like a radio. In fact, when it got broken, it took me more then half a year to replace it because I didn't really care about it.

[Domarius]

Exactly. People are lazy, they just lap up whatever they're fed. The entire game industry fanbase are zombies.

Like giving medicine to a dog, you have to hide it inside a treat.

That is a great analogy. It's sad but true.

I have developed an extremely low opinion of gamers, which is tough, since it already start out pretty low.

What gamers basically what to do is completely waste their time on puerile, mindless, repetitive and comfortable tasks, that are of no merit or consequence to anything.

Just look at the popularity of "coin slot gambling" games, like Pokemon, or RPGs with turn based battles. I'm talking about the kind of game that requires nothing more than to keep doing the same thing over and over, without any personal challenge or improvement - just do anything enough and your characters stats will increase.

They are so damn popular, it's a sad indication of what the majority of gamers are like.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

I play such a game a MUD, and the repetitive aspect I despise, so I always praised the other ones: communication with real people, (before internet became popular), interactivity, giant world (before graphical giant world games appeared). The most fun part of playing this game to this day is illegally botting - I love the challenge of creating bots smart enough to be profitable and not get caught.

[ZylonBane]

What gamers basically what to do is completely waste their time on puerile, mindless, repetitive and comfortable tasks, that are of no merit or consequence to anything.

So you've finally figured out that what most gamers want is to play games. Wow, congratulations herr doktor. What a discovery. The next time I see someone playing chess I'll berate them for not doing anything of merit or consequence.

[oDDity]

That's meant to be some sort of argument is it? Comparing chess to unreal tournament?

You don't play chess, you play the other person's mind.

That can hardly be said for UT multiplayer or pretending to hit orcs ont he head in WoW, that's just childish nonsense, equivalent to hide and seek.

Why don't you see these grown men out playing hide and seek in te park if that's the level of entertainment they require.

[sxotty]

That's meant to be some sort of argument is it? Comparing chess to unreal tournament?

You don't play chess, you play the other person's mind.

That can hardly be said for UT multiplayer or pretending to hit orcs ont he head in WoW, that's just childish nonsense, equivalent to hide and seek.

Why don't you see these grown men out playing hide and seek in te park if that's the level of entertainment they require.

 

 

You mean paint ball? I suppose paintball is more like tag tho. And actually hide and seek could be every bit as engaging as chess though it would take a lot more physical effort for the participants.

Edited May 17, 2007 by sxotty

[Domarius]

Man... paintball is quite different than hide and seek. You might as well say Half Life 2 is like Pokemon. You're still running around and finding enemies after all.

 

Did you think about which demographics generally play paintball vs hide and seek, before you drew the comparison? There's an age gap there.

[sxotty]

Yeah there is an age gap. But 13 year olds play paintball. Not real old by any means. I was just saying everything has its place. Tho as you fellows have mentioned I get incredibly tired of replaying the same thing, so games as you described I do not like to play.

 

I do find it enjoyable to find weird glitches and so forth see where I can climb, explore the game world for the limitations, but then it gets boring unless it changes and you can start the process over again. If you cannot utilize some part of your mind and you are just mashing buttons it is incredibly annoying. That is why playing against other folks is usually more fun. They do unusual things sometimes.

 

 

 

Man... paintball is quite different than hide and seek. You might as well say Half Life 2 is like Pokemon. You're still running around and finding enemies after all.

 

Did you think about which demographics generally play paintball vs hide and seek, before you drew the comparison? There's an age gap there.

[Chi Haotian]

The calculation for the lightgem would still have to take place, because it is needed for the AI as a source of information. After all, if they look at you, they have to know if you are in a shadow or not, and thus they need the value that is calculated by the lightgem.

 

Can visibility be calculated subjectively for each AI and take background into account? For example, a player is in a dark room which has a window. If an AI looks at the player against backdrop of a dark walll, the player will be nearly invisible to this AI. But if another AI looks at the player against the bright window, he will see a clear silhouette and have almost perfect visibility of the player.

[Springheel]

The short answer, no. There is probably a thread in the public forums on silhouette detection if you want to learn more.

[sparhawk]

Can visibility be calculated subjectively for each AI and take background into account? For example, a player is in a dark room which has a window. If an AI looks at the player against backdrop of a dark walll, the player will be nearly invisible to this AI. But if another AI looks at the player against the bright window, he will see a clear silhouette and have almost perfect visibility of the player.

 

With the current lightgem it would even be possible. Tha major issue is the performance. For each AI you woul have to do this seperatly.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

There's a detailed discussion on it in the public forums.

[Chi Haotian]

I've just read it. A few of them, actually. The reasons to not implement the feature are, it may put the strain on the system, and it may make the gameplay too difficult. These seem to be the chief excuses not to try out anything that's really new. It feels as though the Mod is just recycling the old stuff.

[OrbWeaver]

It feels as though the Mod is just recycling the old stuff.

 

Fortunately, nobody will be forcing you to download or play it.

[Springheel]

The reasons to not implement the feature are, it may put the strain on the system, and it may make the gameplay too difficult. These seem to be the chief excuses not to try out anything that's really new.

 

Yes, we're too lazy to try and find a way to circumvent the limitations of today's computers. We also shot down using AI with a human-level of intelligence for the same reasons. How disappointing.

[Mr Retarded]

If you can't emulate real life, why the hell am I here?

[Chi Haotian]

Yes, we're too lazy to try and find a way to circumvent the limitations of today's computers.

 

What would this thing have to do with the limitations of computers? It would only significantly complicate the calculation of the visibility for every AI, and this is nothing unthinkable for today's computers. Also, it's not limitations of today's computers, but of computers of at least a year from now we're talking about, no?

[Crispy]

Let's just try to walk before we try to run, k? The first priority is to release the mod in a basic working state. Once it's out we can think about experimenting with extra features like silhouetting.

 

We actually have an internal forum called "Future Features" where we move any ideas that sound new and interesting, but won't be in the first release due to lack of time and manpower. (While there's no fixed deadline, so in one sense we have infinite time, we really do not want to be spending another 10 years on this before releasing it - and I'm sure you don't want us to either!) Once we're happy with the basic feature set I expect we'll go through it and dust off the best ideas. There are a lot of threads in that forum.