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The Texture Chopping Block


SneaksieDave

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That's my only complain with the old texture - it is too blurry. Could that be "fixed" by just upscaling it and the normal map, then "sharpening" both?

 

You can scale up the photo, clean it a little maybe, change contrast ect. and make new normalmap out of it.

It's only a model...

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If the normal was baked, it can be re-baked in high-res, if someone has the original model. In any case, there's no way to reinvent the diffuse. Someone will have to redo it.

 

...Why is everyone looking at me?

 

...err ok I'll redo it. Who has the originals?

 

There was no model. Diffuse was treated as a heightmap and converted to normalmap using some program. This method is not perfect but in this case it worked.

It's only a model...

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There was no model. Diffuse was treated as a heightmap and converted to normalmap using some program. This method is not perfect but in this case it worked.

 

I just looked at the 2 versions (+normal) and your version is a great replica, but I could not see a normal for it. That's basically where the 'lumpiness' of the older version comes from. Have you made one? would you like me to make one?

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I just looked at the 2 versions (+normal) and your version is a great replica, but I could not see a normal for it. That's basically where the 'lumpiness' of the older version comes from. Have you made one? would you like me to make one?

 

There is a normalmap, only it's rather soft. I think it's sufficient.

It's only a model...

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Is anyone willing to fix it? Beyond this (which admittedly is a very good use of it) it's basically a busted material (looks shite and doesn't even have proper normals).

 

Who knows, maybe we'll just keep everything anyway. Very few seem interested in cutting the fat from the texture repository despite the ballooning size, and we still don't have a place to put the discards after 1.5 years of talking about it.

 

So far, two textures (of hundreds) are nominated for removal, and we can't even let those -- from the bottom of the barrel -- go. The texture repository has the potential to shine, but we're leaving the cruft laying around.

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I feel your frustration, but it's not easy to go back and fix maps to use different textures, as most of the time there are no adequate replacements.

 

I totally agree we should get rid of textures that are bad, but imo we should approach it in a different way:

 

* List textures that should be removed and/or replaced.

* Find if they are being used in maps or models.

* If yes, then either make a replacement or fix the texture.

* If no then it can be safely removed.

 

This means that textures which are bad and are not being used by mappers will be removed without stepping on anyone's toes. As for textures which are in use, those will have to be dealt with on a case by case basis, as depending on the extent of use they may be possible to simply remove - for example a texture is used in only one map on the back of a toilet or something of the sort.

 

This has to be dealt with quickly though, before more textures are used etc.

 

One good example is the default D3 dirt texture. We should remove its reference from our materials and instead only use the dirt that I believe arcturus made? They look almost the same in a general outlook, but arturus' one is of a much higher quality.

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Exactly, speed is of the essence, but sloth pervades. Should just delete the files and forget about backing them up.

 

I'd suggest an additional guideline on that list would be that if you want to retain the texture the burden falls on you to fix it. Basically you become the caretaker of it. Are you willing to fix that one up for keeps? (This is in no way hostile.) Maybe there should be a timer too, because I can already foresee that granite one sitting there, never fixed either.

 

It is frustrating, it's just that this is going nowhere. Nominations come up, a few care, most don't. Voting doesn't happen, removal doesn't happen, fixing doesn't happen. The undesirables just sit there, taking up HD and memory, increasing the bloat in the mod while decreasing the quality, and nothing happens. I've tried for more than 1.5 years to get this going and it's not.

 

I'm inclined to just say fuck it and let someone else worry about it. Which no one will.

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I think that's to be expected when a department cruises along without a head for about two years now.

 

I think Dram's suggestion makes sense. Nominate all the textures that are questionable. If there is no loud disagreement, and they aren't being used by anyone, delete them.

 

If they are being used by someone, then they could potentially be removed from the main texture folders and put into a specific texture/map/ folder. That way they're out of circulation but it doesn't wreck anyone's map.

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I understand your frustration :mellow:

 

However, while I might be able to spot a bad texture when I see it, I have no real artistic talent to fix them - the two textures I made where halfway completed by arcturus (the big stones one) and the other one was heavily critized (but noone fixed it).

 

The only other texture work I have done was dabbling with the apple skins and that was re-coloring existing ones.

 

So, you can count me out of any serious texture work for being unqualified. Sorry.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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speed is of the essence, but sloth pervades.

 

LOL! an instant classic :D

 

I would do it but I am a. too much of a newbie to take such action and b. would probably erase half the textures. I vote for Springheel to do it!

 

-What? no!! I have too much work why always me

 

Anyone against? no? good! you do it then :P

 

No, all kids aside, I think a quicker process would be really for one of the well-versed-in-the-mod artists to rampage through the repository, striking down all evil textures, and then the mappers, respectively, will realize what textures have been removed and are missing (I assume if their own repository is kept in sync thus it will show which textures are missing locally, right?). Then each mapper will decide what he can replace with an existing alternative, or where does he now have a gap that must be filled --- and then the artists will replace the texture.

 

What works in this system (again, assuming the shared repository shrinkage will affect the local repository of the mappers) is that once step A has been initiated by some hopefully sober texture crusader, the sequential steps become a necessity and cannot be put on hold.

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LOL! an instant classic :D

 

I would do it but I am a. too much of a newbie to take such action and b. would probably erase half the textures. I vote for Springheel to do it!

 

-What? no!! I have too much work why always me

 

Anyone against? no? good! you do it then :P

 

No, all kids aside, I think a quicker process would be really for one of the well-versed-in-the-mod artists to rampage through the repository, striking down all evil textures, and than the mappers, respectively, will realize what textures have been removed and are missing (I assume if their own repository is kept in sync thus it will show which textures are missing locally, right?). Then each mapper will decide what he can replace with an existing alternative, or where does he now have a gap that must be filled --- and then the artists will replace the texture.

 

What works in this system (again, assuming the shared repository shrinkage will affect the local repository of the mappers) is that once step A has been initiated by some hopefully sober texture crusader, the sequential steps become a necessity and cannot be put on hold.

 

That process will have my backing, if we have:

 

* really someone who kicks the bad textures and justifies it (e.g. some artist)

* someone who really adds back higher quality textures (as a last resort, we could resurrect the bad textures)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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As a mapper, I have to say that replacing removed textures is about as interesting, time consuming, and frustrating as trying to get a dead whale carcass off the back of your lawn while wondering the whole time how the hell it got there through the night.

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Yes, removing them without warning is not necessary.

 

I've already suggested what I think makes the most sense:

 

Add any nominated textures to a chopping block map, let people test it and give feedback. If no one speaks up on a texture's behalf after a reasonable time, it can be removed. If someone speaks up that they are using it, but it is terrible (like the one Dram is using), then it can be moved to a separate texture/map folder (which already exists for this purpose) so the mapper doesn't have to retexture anything, but the texture is essentially out of the repository (it would be distributed with the map, not the main mod).

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Yes, removing them without warning is not necessary.

 

I've already suggested what I think makes the most sense:

 

Add any nominated textures to a chopping block map, let people test it and give feedback. If no one speaks up on a texture's behalf after a reasonable time, it can be removed. If someone speaks up that they are using it, but it is terrible (like the one Dram is using), then it can be moved to a separate texture/map folder (which already exists for this purpose) so the mapper doesn't have to retexture anything, but the texture is essentially out of the repository (it would be distributed with the map, not the main mod).

 

voting on every texture can make it a long-lasting bureaucratic process, but is more democratic, while my approach is swift and lethal but can cause stirrings among the peasants. I say, let the mappers decide, cuz they're gonna have the bulk of burden replacing textures more than anyone.

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voting on every texture can make it a long-lasting bureaucratic process

 

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting voting on every texture.

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Two textures are currently nominated, and displayed in test/texchop.map.

 

I somewhat favor the suggestion of chopped textures which are in use and still wanted (e.g. Dram's one) being moved to a /map_specific folder. The only misgiving with that is, I am not sure it helps the situation. The maps using these textures right now are in a sense "core" maps, in that they're being developed along with the mod, right now. So the textures sit on SVN anyway. They're still taking up space, and they're still available to all connected for use. It doesn't really cull the texture at all.

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I'm also in favour of throwing out really bad textures (or improving them, or replacing with similar but better ones, but this will not always be possible).

 

I don't use the brick one in the gathers, the granite might be in there but can be replaced with something else, so personally I don't have any objections if these two have to go (and I agree, the bricks do look really bad).

 

I could do a replacement for the bricks if this is desired, just need a diffuse image with quite rough bricks and lots of mortar in between. (I could also improve the granite localmap one if anyone feels particularly sorry for it ^_^ )

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I feel your frustration, but it's not easy to go back and fix maps to use different textures, as most of the time there are no adequate replacements.

 

I wonder if this would work if the textures are removed and you keep a local copy of them, putting them in your own private pk4 file and deliver it. Not sure if this would work, but if Doom 3 loads two files with the same name, I think there is a chance to take precendence over other files.

 

Did you try this approach?

Gerhard

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As a mapper, I have to say that replacing removed textures is about as interesting, time consuming, and frustrating as trying to get a dead whale carcass off the back of your lawn while wondering the whole time how the hell it got there through the night.

 

Yes, that's understandable. It's very frustrating to have to do the same boring stuff over and over again (just ask Spring about the re-rigging of the models for animation). Also there is a high risk that such textures cause problems in the map, because you may easily miss areas where it was used and considered finished.

Gerhard

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Another option would be to flag such textures as obsolete, and support that flag in the editor. So the texture would remain in the repository, but the editor can warn people about them based on that flag, so they shouldn't use them anymore.

 

This way we can at least mark all those textures, and have more time to think about it, without the immediate need of replacing them and angry mappers with it.

Gerhard

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Dear god, reading through all the available options it probably is easiest to just remove the textures, but have a comprehensive list of what was removed and what are viable replacements and then mappers can go and replace those textures. It'll be a pain in the arse and I'll be grumbling the whole time but it is indeed the best solution, or these textures will never truly be replaced.

 

So please, go ahead and remove but make sure a comprehensive list is available to mappers detailing what's gone. For example:

 

Removed:

textures/darkmod/wood/realcrapwoodtexture

 

Viable replacements:

textures/darkmod/wood/superbwoodtexture

textures/darkmod/wood/uberwoodtexture

textures/darkmod/wood/supremelypowerfulwoodtexture

 

 

In this way it would make the job easier for mappers, as they only have to do a search and replace and would already have a list of options available to them.

 

What does everyone think?

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