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The Texture Chopping Block


SneaksieDave

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In this way it would make the job easier for mappers, as they only have to do a search and replace and would already have a list of options available to them.

 

What does everyone think?

 

I think this suggestion is the best from the texture repository's perspective. I agree that mappers won't like it, but I don't think there is a really painless solution available.

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I don't see why, putting it in a local PK4 which is map specific and will be delivered with the map anyway, should be so complicated. Assuming this works as I think it should, of course, this should be the best way to do this stuff, because such problems can occur always also at a later time. Not just because some things would be replaced by newer stuff breaking older stuff, but also because it might make sense to override existing stuff with a customzied version of it.

 

And the proposal about adding tags, would be a long-term solution for this problem, not just for your particular map, but it would solve other problems as well, like where to put things if they have more then one particular use.

Gerhard

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Removed:

textures/darkmod/wood/realcrapwoodtexture

 

Viable replacements:

textures/darkmod/wood/superbwoodtexture

textures/darkmod/wood/uberwoodtexture

textures/darkmod/wood/supremelypowerfulwoodtexture

 

What? You removed real crap wood texture! I'm using it in a map! ;)

 

Don't worry so much about mappers, they can choose other textures or add them to their own map pk4 file.

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Yeah, if /map_specific isn't part of TDM distribution (and it shouldn't be or else it's pointless), then keeping the texture in question for blackheart, or making a blackheart.pk4 to go along with the map distribution, lets the author (Dram in this case) keep whatever texture they want. It's no different than for example Gleeful coming back, working on a map, making a bunch of textures for himself, and then including them with his package instead of giving them to the mod.

 

We just have to make sure the /map_specific folder and such pk4s are not part of TDM distribution.

 

The tag proposal is also interesting; if I understand correctly it would show us what isn't being used at all, allowing us to decide easier.

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The tag can be already added, because it's just a text spawnarg after all. So even if currently there is no code to support it, it can be added later. So you can start adding a tag to textures now without fear of disrupting anything. The only thing that should be agreed on is to use a consistent (and small) set of tags.

Another advantage is also, that even if we don't add code to support it, you can still use the tags later on with scripts to help automatize analysing the problematic stuff.

Gerhard

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Yeah, if /map_specific isn't part of TDM distribution (and it shouldn't be or else it's pointless), then keeping the texture in question for blackheart, or making a blackheart.pk4 to go along with the map distribution, lets the author (Dram in this case) keep whatever texture they want.

 

That's exactly what I suggested already, twice. Did I just not explain it well? :huh:

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Yes, it's understood. I'm merely trying to reiterate and help move this nightmare forward, because lately, any and all energy just goes toward contention, bickering, correcting, clarifying.

 

It's like anymore we've lost any and all ability to get firmly past step two:

1. dilemma

2. solution?

3. agreement

4. DO IT

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@Sneaksie:

 

I was trying to find the post that said how we should resort the light entites in the editor_DisplayFolder, but I can't find it :(

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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It's like anymore we've lost any and all ability to get firmly past step two:

1. dilemma

2. solution?

 

You're right.

 

Consider this permission from the Art Department Lead to proceed in the following way:

 

 

1. Ask for nominees. Anyone who wants to nominate a texture for removal can post it here.

 

2. Make a testmap of all nominated textures--preferably a hallway where people can walk down and gaze at examples of any nominees (perhaps with texture name or a number added for easy discussion). Would you be ok handling this Sneaksie?

 

3. Post somewhere clearly that the map is ready and people should check it out. People should ONLY respond if they strongly disagree with a texture being removed.

 

4. After a reasonable period of time (two or three weeks, perhaps), any texture that has NOT had someone speak up on its behalf will be deleted from SVN. If a mapper still wishes to use it they must add it to their map_specific folder.

 

5. Any textures that get an "I'd like to keep it but it just needs a little work" response should be posted in the texture thread. If someone volunteers to fix it, fine--it can be recorded on the bugtracker. If no one volunteers to fix it, it should be removed from SVN.

 

Unless there are strict objections to this method, just DO IT. ;)

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@SH: Have you seen test/texchop.map ? I've used that one for the sake of displaying the textures in a map. A guard walks around which presents a "semi-real" setting and varying lighting. There's also a lantern. So far comments have been few though.

 

Anyway it sounds like we've got a meeting of the minds on it, and so we can put this into action.

 

@Dram: do you still want to have angua replace the texture, or keep it and put it in a pk4 or map_specific for blackheart?

 

@Tels: I'm not sure which it was... I though sparhawk had a pretty good suggestion, basically all in lights:

 

/lights/sources

/lights/fixed

/lights/moveable

 

It does break from "moveables" being in "moveables", but it could be seen as first and foremost a light, and then sorted down from there. I like it.

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@Tels: I'm not sure which it was... I though sparhawk had a pretty good suggestion, basically all in lights:

 

/lights/sources

/lights/fixed

/lights/moveable

 

It does break from "moveables" being in "moveables", but it could be seen as first and foremost a light, and then sorted down from there. I like it.

 

Okay, I moved them all over.

 

The "tag" idea is probably the best long term strategy. We can even make the editor automatically build up a tag list by splitting the entity def name on "_" so:

 

atdm:moveable_candle_holder_plus_skinny_t
all_candle

 

gets "moveable candle holder plus skinny tall" as a tag cloud :) That pretty much covers most of the attributes right there :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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@SH: Have you seen test/texchop.map ? I've used that one for the sake of displaying the textures in a map. A guard walks around which presents a "semi-real" setting and varying lighting. There's also a lantern. So far comments have been few though.

 

Yes, that was fine, though I thought if there are going to be a lot of nominees, a longer hallway with labels might be needed.

 

Based on the results of that map, the whitish one should be deleted, with Dram having a chance to move it to his map_specific folder. The other one should be posted in the texture forum and see if anyone is willing to update it (or did someone volunteer already?). If there is no one willing to update it, then remove it as well.

 

I'd like to see a big long list of nominees rather than do one or two at a time, however. It's too easy to quibble over one or two textures, where if we post twenty, people will generally agree on at least a dozen.

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I just made a replacement for the protruding bricks, here is a comparison of the old and the new version:

post-483-1226155707_thumb.jpg

 

and here without normal map :P

post-483-1226155761_thumb.jpg

 

Shall I upload it? :)

 

The new normal map looks terrific, but the shine... not so much :) I like the old one textures' subdued "dustiness", the new one looks like plastic to me. Is that an artefact of the normalmap, or some specularmap?

 

In the first picture, the right side looks like a real wall, the left side like a computer-rendered image. Sorry to say so :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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There is no specularmap :mellow: . That was probably only because the light was quite bright, here is a new screenshot with a single candle flame:

post-483-1226163864_thumb.jpg

... and without normals:

post-483-1226163901_thumb.jpg

 

It does look better, but all stones should have a 85-95% dark spec map to kill plastic shine. The ground texture should also be more subdued through specular, and the candle light should be less saturated and *slightly* more orange.

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It does look better, but all stones should have a 85-95% dark spec map to kill plastic shine.

 

Ah, so you can tone *down* the shine by adding a (sort of negative) specular map? That's cool to know. (And I agree, the new texture still looks a bit plastic too me).

 

The ground texture should also be more subdued through specular, and the candle light should be less saturated and *slightly* more orange.

 

You can easily tweak light_candleflame to achive the desired color.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Ah, so you can tone *down* the shine by adding a (sort of negative) specular map? That's cool to know. (And I agree, the new texture still looks a bit plastic too me).

 

Really? I've never heard this before.

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I think everyone who's ever worked on D3 textures knows that. :) The issue at hand is that we've all been assuming (at least I have) that no specular map = zero specular = not plastic-looking. Are you saying this isn't true?

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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I think everyone who's ever worked on D3 textures knows that. :) The issue at hand is that we've all been assuming (at least I have) that no specular map = zero specular = not plastic-looking. Are you saying this isn't true?

 

Tell you the truth I don't know, my assumption was it was required to control it, and without it... well who knows what happens. I didn't consider it as an actual effective '0' value, which actually makes more sense.

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Combine a specular with a strong normalmap and what you get is plastic looks. :)

 

Unless the stone should be wet looking, there should be no specular map on stones.

 

There is also no such thing as "negative" specular map - I want to see an example of that. ;)

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